View Full Version : Porter Goss has resigned
Roguish Lawyer
05-05-2006, 12:01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/05/AR2006050500937.html?referrer=email
CIA Director Porter Goss Resigns
By JENNIFER LOVEN
The Associated Press
Friday, May 5, 2006; 1:58 PM
WASHINGTON -- CIA Director Porter Goss has resigned, President Bush said Friday.
Bush called Goss' tenure one of transition.
"He has led ably," Bush said from the Oval Office. "He has a five-year plan to increase the analysts and operatives."
Bush said that Goss, a former member of Congress, has "helped make this country a safer place."
"We've got to win the war on terror," Bush said.
Said Goss: "I would like to report to you that the agency (CIA) is back on a very even keel and sailing well."
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 12:16
Saw it.
Wonder if the recent leaks had anything to do with it? He did not strike me as a likely candidate to depart so soon.
Neocon splashback?
TR
NousDefionsDoc
05-05-2006, 12:17
Be interesting to see why. The libs are saying it's over the Cunningham whoring scandal.
I hate to see him go before he is through gutting that rat's nest.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-05-2006, 13:57
.
I hate to see him go before he is through gutting that rat's nest.
Don't you think that some of the good ole' boys have called in some heavy chips with the legislators to make this happen. The agency is almost as bad as SF when it comes to eating their own.
NousDefionsDoc
05-05-2006, 14:13
I don't know Sir, could be. Other reasons I can think of:
1. Negroponte is his de facto boss and maybe they don't get along so well.
2. He is going to run for some office.
3. The leak thing got him.
4. He can't handle the pressure, he mentioned the workload to the press a while back.
5. He's sick.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-05-2006, 14:16
I don't know Sir, could be. Other reasons I can think of:
1. Negroponte is his de facto boss and maybe they don't get along so well.
2. He is going to run for some office.
3. The leak thing got him.
4. He can't handle the pressure, he mentioned the workload to the press a while back.
5. He's sick.
Damn, you are kind.:D
NousDefionsDoc
05-05-2006, 15:24
I'm a Medic Sir, it's my job to be kind.:)
i'm going to guess-stimate here. I'm going to say that Goss and Negroponte had a falling out. My guess is that it is over the handling of the McCarthy leak case. Goss wanted her prosecuted. And there was, as you said, pressure from the bow-ties succumbed to.
Any takers?
Roguish Lawyer
05-05-2006, 16:46
i'm going to guess-stimate here. I'm going to say that Goss and Negroponte had a falling out. My guess is that it is over the handling of the McCarthy leak case. Goss wanted her prosecuted. And there was, as you said, pressure from the bow-ties succumbed to.
Any takers?
Looks like you may be correct, although the focus of this article is on Negroponte taking over CIA functions.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/05/goss.resignation/index.html
Porter Goss resigns as CIA chief
'I honestly believe that we have improved dramatically,' he says
Friday, May 5, 2006; Posted: 6:07 p.m. EDT (22:07 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA Director Porter Goss is resigning, President Bush announced Friday.
"Porter's tenure at the CIA was one of transition, where he's helped this agency become integrated into the intelligence community, and that was a tough job," Bush said in a photo session with Goss at the Oval Office.
"He's got a five-year plan to increase the number of analysts and operatives, which is going to help make this country a safer place and help us win the war on terror," the president said.
Goss told Bush: "I believe the agency is on a very even keel, sailing well, I honestly believe that we have improved dramatically."
No reason was given for Goss' resignation, but the White House has been in the midst of an administration shakeup since Josh Bolten took over as chief of staff.
Goss' deputy, who may take over in the interim, is Vice Adm. Albert M. Calland.
Policy fights
There have been weeks-long policy disputes between Goss and John Negroponte, the director of national intelligence, over the future of the CIA, sources who were close to the discussions told CNN.
According to sources, Negroponte's decision to transfer certain functions from the CIA to his office were fiercely resisted by Goss, who believe the moves would diminish the agency's power and ability to function. (TIME.com: The Incredible Shrinking CIA)
After the White House sided with Negroponte and his deputy, Gen. Michael Hayden, it was a mutual decision that Goss would resign, the sources said.
"Porter Goss is standing up for the CIA," one intelligence source told CNN. "He believes the Central Intelligence Agency should be just that: central."
No permanent replacement for Goss was announced.
Goss became CIA chief in September 2004. He previously had served 16 years as a Republican congressman from Florida. During his congressional tenure, Goss served as chairman of the House Select Committee on Intelligence.
From 1962 to 1972, Goss was a CIA clandestine service officer.
Rocky tenure
A senior staffer on the Senate Intelligence Committee told CNN that lawmakers and congressional staffers were caught off guard by the "bizarrely sudden" resignation.
In fact, the committee had a closed-door hearing with the DNI's office yesterday, and "no one got any hint this was coming," the staff said.
Initial reaction by lawmakers to the news emphasized that the CIA needs to continue to change, regardless of who takes the reins. (Ex-CIA deputy director on Goss's rocky tenure)
"Director Goss took the helm of the intelligence community at a very difficult time in the wake of the intelligence failures associated with 9/11 and Iraq WMD," Sen. Pat Roberts, a Republican from Kansas who is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in a written statement. "Porter made some significant improvements at the CIA, but I think even he would say they still have some way to go."
Sen. John Rockefeller of West Virginia, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, said in a written statement: "Regrettably, Porter Goss's tenure as director of the CIA was a tumultuous one. His chief mission was to reform the operations of the CIA and to lead the agency with foresight and vision, yet his tenure was marked by an exodus of talented and respected intelligence officers and a demoralized staff."
Former CIA Director Stansfield Turner told CNN that Goss may have resigned because he was passed over for the position of director of national intelligence, which went to Negroponte.
Former Georgia Rep. Bob Barr agreed with Turner's speculation and added, "I think there's going to be more coming out; we don't know the whole story."
"This is a devastating blow, the importance of which really cannot be overestimated," Barr told CNN. "It indicates again a continuing downward slide in the intelligence capabilities of our government, it indicates again the disorganization on the part of our intelligence agencies at a time when we can ill afford to see that happen."
The agency was recently rocked when Mary McCarthy was fired, reportedly over alleged leaks about secret prisons to The Washington Post. McCarthy's lawyer denies that she was the source for the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporting.
McCarthy's firing was seen as part of a crackdown by Goss on the leaking of classified information.
There has also been media reports of dissatisfaction with Goss' leadership among the rank-and-file within the agency and the exodus of several high-level staff members.
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 17:12
Goss' deputy, who may take over in the interim, is Vice Adm. Albert M. Calland.
Anyone else know who Calland is, without looking him up?
TR
Kyobanim
05-05-2006, 17:22
1. Negroponte is his de facto boss and maybe they don't get along so well.
I agree with this after hearing the circumstances of the announcement and how it was presented in the press room. I think his boss didn't like him and wanted him gone.
From CNN No reason was given for Goss' resignation, but sources told CNN there were lengthy disputes between Goss and John Negroponte, the director of national intelligence, over the future of the CIA. They say Negroponte's decision to transfer certain functions from the CIA to his office were fiercely resisted by Goss.
rubberneck
05-05-2006, 18:56
Anyone else know who Calland is, without looking him up?
TR
I know of a SEAL officer by the same last name. I want to say that he headed up SOCOM at one point but I don't want to cheat and look it up.
DebkaFILE (http://www.debka.com) recently posted this analysis (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1162) of the situation. Some highlights:
On the CIA's failures with Goss at the helm:
DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources note the CIA is on its uppers in three vital spheres:
1. ... The continuous upsurge of violence in Iraq means the CIA has failed by and large to penetrate the most dangerous insurgent groups.
2. While the Taliban-al Qaeda rebellion rages in Afghanistan, Abu Musab al Zarqawi’s Iraq wing - far from being crushed - has in the last six months opened up new terror fronts in Sinai, Egypt, Palestinian territories and Algeria.
3. On Iran, the CIA comes up short on two interconnected issues: derailing Iran’s nuclear program with the help of local surrogates ... [and] American operatives should have been able to head off the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and intelligence agents who have permeated every corner of Iraqi politics
On Goss's failure to reform the CIA:
[Goss's] attempts to reform and shake up key personnel were quickly challenged by the upper and professional echelons, which meted out the treatment traditionally reserved for “outsiders.”
On Goss's relationship with Negroponte:
From the 2005 appointment of John Negroponte as Director of National Intelligence ... the new CIA director’s days were numbered. Traditionally the agency chief is first among his peers in the other American undercover services. Although the two had been friends, Negroponte’s appointment upset that internal balance and further weakened Goss in his struggle with the agency veterans. When the inevitable clash occurred, the president favored the czar.
On who might replace Goss:
[Negroponte] may try inserting as a cushion his principal deputy, Air Force General Michael Hayden 61, in the top CIA slot, hoping that as an accredited member of the rarefied spook community he gets better treatment than Goss. Hayden was director of the National Security Agency in 2001 and in charge of the controversial wiretapping program of conversations with suspected overseas terrorists without a warrant.
DebkaFile appears to have good intelligence sources from the stories it's run in the 4+ months I've been reading it. I'd be highly interested to read what you all have to say about this, as I don't know what to think about whether anything can actually be done to "fix" the CIA.
My own thoughts about intelligence in Iraq (in terms of dealing with the insurgency) have not changed since I left the IDF almost a year ago -- why doesn't the CIA try to learn something from Israel's Shabbakkim (usually called Shin Beit in the media)? When we went into a town, city, or "refugee camp" for anything from a simple arrest to a major operation, we had intelligence on where the hostiles were, how many there were, and even what sorts of weapons they had. This wasn't always perfectly accurate, but when it wasn't it was close. The Shabbakkim would often just command the operation instead of our own NCOs or officers. And things went well.
But that leads to what has appeared to be the problem with the CIA from the start -- "We'll do it our way, the way we've always done it, and nobody's going to come in and tell us what to do." Does anyone have a chance of uprooting the dead weight from the CIA? Can the CIA change, and can it become a more effective force?
Sorry for the long post, I hope that at least the link is interesting.
The Reaper
05-06-2006, 18:04
VADM Calland was the former CO, NAVSPECWARCOM.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
05-06-2006, 18:45
Originally Posted by DebkaFILE
DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources note the CIA is on its uppers in three vital spheres:
1. ... The continuous upsurge of violence in Iraq means the CIA has failed by and large to penetrate the most dangerous insurgent groups.
2. While the Taliban-al Qaeda rebellion rages in Afghanistan, Abu Musab al Zarqawi’s Iraq wing - far from being crushed - has in the last six months opened up new terror fronts in Sinai, Egypt, Palestinian territories and Algeria.
3. On Iran, the CIA comes up short on two interconnected issues: derailing Iran’s nuclear program with the help of local surrogates ... [and] American operatives should have been able to head off the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and intelligence agents who have permeated every corner of Iraqi politics
I don't like this analysis. Let's take the first block.
1. How exactly does infiltrating a terrorist group stop the violence? Eventually you will be able to destroy the group, but I don't see this at all. And look at the implied tasks that go with this. Much easier said than done.
2. Again, how is this on the Agency? There are billions of Muslims. AQ's grandparents were born in Egypt. How in the hell are they supposed to influence events in the Territories? Algeria? COME ON!
3. How?
He was the DCI - not UNDERDOG (http://www.delorie.com/users/dj/tidbits/underdog.wav)
Warrior-Mentor
05-06-2006, 19:30
Washington Post had a different spin on it...seems they think it wasn't a resignation...it was a forced resignation...
Goss Forced Out as CIA Director; Gen. Hayden Is Likely Successor
Dafna Linzer and Walter Pincus, A01 (Post) 05/06/2006
Porter J. Goss was forced to step down yesterday as CIA director, ending a turbulent 18-month tenure marked by an exodus of some of the agency's top talent and growing White House dissatisfaction...
Bush Ends Goss's Stormy Tenure By Forcing Him Out as CIA Chief
Dafna Linzer and Walter Pincus, A01 (Post) 05/06/2006
Porter J. Goss was forced to step down yesterday as CIA director, ending a turbulent 18-month tenure marked by an exodus of some of the agency's top talent and growing White House dissatisfaction...
Roguish Lawyer
05-06-2006, 21:56
"Top talent" or incompetent morons in top positions? :munchin
(Not that I would know . . .)
NousDefionsDoc
05-06-2006, 22:42
I think Negroponte is going to end up being the mistake in this whole deal. There's no way I would have picked from State for that position.
Cincinnatus
05-07-2006, 07:10
Out of my lane, but I agree. Negroponte's appointment has the earmarks of a mistake of monumental proportions.
I don't like this analysis. Let's take the first block.
1. How exactly does infiltrating a terrorist group stop the violence? Eventually you will be able to destroy the group, but I don't see this at all. And look at the implied tasks that go with this. Much easier said than done.
2. Again, how is this on the Agency? There are billions of Muslims. AQ's grandparents were born in Egypt. How in the hell are they supposed to influence events in the Territories? Algeria? COME ON!
3. How?
Of course I can only speculate as I have no experience in intelligence -- I was just a grunt in the IDF for a very short while. But DEBKAfile gathers its information from their connections in various intelligence communities around the world (probably mostly Mossad and Shabbak) and their analysis likely reflects comments they've heard from such agents.
1. Infiltrating a terrorist group -- whether by placing agents who are native speakers of the language and know the culture (much more difficult for the US in Iraq than for Israel in the West Bank or Gaza, of course) or buying those connected to a group -- allows for access to information such as hide-outs, movements of operatives, and painting targets. Israel has been using these techniques for a while. Then again, Israel has far better knowledge of its territories from a longer history than the US of Iraq. Israel also has a large population of native- or heritage-speakers of Arabic who look like Arabs in its military and in its other security services. The United States does not.
2. If the CIA were to identify terrorist organizations' operatives and track their movements, they would better be able to inform other governments of infiltrations and, hopefully, of where these operatives have been setting up camp. Egypt, notably, has recently had extremely low success in battling Al Qaeda camps in the Sinai. Al Qaeda has been there for a while and appears to be fairly secure there. It looks like they were not sufficiently monitored.
Further, according to Debka, the US military has claimed that it is near to catching Zarqawi. If it's so hot on his trail, how can he be expanding his organization so successfully? From what I've been reading, Zarqawi's Al Qaeda wing relies on central planning and hierarchical structure to a greater extent than bin Laden's Al Qaeda. When Israel started hitting Hamas targets about a year ago, Hamas's activities dropped significantly when leaders' communications and mobility were hampered. We don't see that in the case of Zarqawi. Does this indicate that
(a)al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a centrally-planned organization? I recall that the Jordan bombings were apparently planned in part by Zarqawi himself, with his right-hand man sent as a suicide bomber.
or,
(b)Zarqawi isn't really all that close to being caught?
3. No clue. But I wonder why no action seems to have been taken? Should Iranian agents be given free access to Iraq and especially its government?
All that I see -- from far away, of course -- is that the CIA doesn't seem to be doing an amazing job at stemming terrorist organizations' growth and continued operation. The expansion of Zarqawi's network is particularly troubling, and part of the fault lies with Israel's new government in my opinion. Maybe these tasks are extremely difficult for any intelligence agency to accomplish. But should that be an excuse for a lack of success in these times when good actionable intelligence is of central importance?
NousDefionsDoc
05-07-2006, 16:30
1. As you said. You identified very well just a few of the problems with, "Just bop on down there and sign up." Also, there are issues with anybody joining AQ. The information is available.
2. To compare HAMAS with AQ is in my opinion, not valid. HAMAS is a fixed target. Clearly defined limits and limitations. Not really even covert. Iraq is much different. HAMAS could probably be better compared with the IRA in this discussion.
3. Don't assume no action is being taken with regards to the nuclear issue. It wouldn't be covert if everyone knew about. Not that I'm saying there is. As for the Iranians crossing - The Agency is not a border patrol. There is no fence or wall there, and that is a large border.
In addition, the CIA is not autonomous in Iraq. It is not our country. The agencies are operating thousands of miles from their bases in a language and culture not many understand with no real possibility of blending in.
If you want to compare with Israel, let's discuss a hypothetical situation in which the CIA is operating in Canada.
Roguish Lawyer
05-07-2006, 16:41
If you want to compare with Israel, let's discuss a hypothetical situation in which the CIA is operating in Canada.
LOL
Warrior-Mentor
05-07-2006, 16:48
Tied to contractor's poker parties -
hints of bribes & women
BY RICHARD SISK and JAMES GORDON MEEK
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU
WASHINGTON - CIA Director Porter Goss abruptly resigned yesterday amid allegations that he and a top aide may have attended Watergate poker parties where bribes and prostitutes were provided to a corrupt congressman.
Kyle (Dusty) Foggo, the No. 3 official at the CIA, could soon be indicted in a widening FBI investigation of the parties thrown by defense contractor Brent Wilkes, named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the bribery conviction of former Rep. Randall (Duke) Cunningham, law enforcement sources said.
A CIA spokeswoman said Foggo went to the lavish weekly hospitality-suite parties at the Watergate and Westin Grand hotels but "just for poker."
Intelligence and law enforcement sources said solid evidence had yet to emerge that Goss also went to the parties, but Goss and Foggo share a fondness for poker and expensive cigars, and the FBI investigation was continuing.
Larry Johnson, a former CIA operative and a Bush administration critic, said Goss "had a relationship with Dusty and with Brent Wilkes that's now coming under greater scrutiny."
Johnson vouched for the integrity of Foggo and Goss but said, "Dusty was a big poker player, and it's my understanding that Porter Goss was also there \[at Wilkes' parties\] for poker. It's going to be guilt by association."
"It's all about the Duke Cunningham scandal," a senior law enforcement official told the Daily News in reference to Goss' resignation. Duke, a California Republican, was sentenced to more than eight years in prison after pleading guilty in November to taking $2.4 million in homes, yachts and other bribes in exchange for steering government contracts.
Goss' inability to handle the allegations swirling around Foggo prompted John Negroponte, the director of National Intelligence, who oversees all of the nation's spy agencies, to press for the CIA chief's ouster, the senior official said. The official said Goss is not an FBI target but "there is an impending indictment" of Foggo for steering defense contracts to his poker buddies.
One subject of the FBI investigation is a $3 million CIA contract that went to Wilkes to supply bottled water and other goods to CIA operatives in Iraq and Afghanistan, sources said.
In a hastily arranged Oval Office announcement that stunned official Washington, neither President Bush nor Goss offered a substantive reason for why the head of the spy agency was leaving after only a year on the job.
"He has led ably" in an era of CIA transition, Bush said with Goss seated at his side. "He has a five-year plan to increase the analysts and operatives."
Goss said the trust Bush placed in him "is something I could never have imagined." "I believe the agency is on a very even keel, sailing well," he said.
The official Bush administration spin that emerged later was that Goss lost out in a turf battle with Negroponte, but Goss' tenure was marked by the resignations of several veteran operatives who viewed him as an amateur out of his depth.
White House officials said Bush would announce early next week his choice to succeed Goss. Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, Negroponte's top deputy, heads the list of potential replacements, with White House counterterror chief Fran Townsend also on the short list.
Negroponte "apparently had no confidence" in Goss, and Bush's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board was also "very alarmed by problems at the CIA," said a congressional source involved in oversight of U.S. spy agencies.
"Supposedly the \[Cunningham\] scandal was the last straw," the source said. "This administration may be on the verge of a major scandal."
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/415304p-350961c.html
I got to learn how to type faster.
1. As you said. You identified very well just a few of the problems with, "Just bop and down there and sign up." Also, there are issues with anybody joining AQ. The information is available.
It is very difficult, of course. But how successful has the CIA -- together with the military's HUMINT resources -- been at recruiting local help? Not necessarily turncoats but local informants as well? This is not a rhetorical question, I simply don't know this. There have apparently been successes but AQ in Iraq does not appear to be slowing down.
2. To compare HAMAS with AQ is in my opinion, not valid. HAMAS is a fixed target. Clearly defined limits and limitations. Not really even covert. Iraq is much different. HAMAS could probably be better compared with the IRA in this discussion.
I have to respectfully disagree with that analogy. Hamas is part of the pan-Arab Muslim Brotherhood and receives funding and recruits from multiple Muslim nations, including Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Egypt. Probably Jordan as well, considering the huge Palestinian population there. And even if the point were to be ceded, the IDF and Shabbak must contend with Jihad Islami, PFLP, PRC, Tanzim, Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and now Zarqawi's Al Qaeda. Recruits -- males and females as young as 16 -- join an organization, receive training in a matter of days or weeks, and are sent off with explosives. This is in addition to the estimated 10,000 to 20,000 permanent "employees" of the terror organizations. It appears something similar is true in Iraq. The command structure of AQ in Iraq appears fairly fixed with identifiable leaders, and recruits for suicide bombings are generally not longtime members but raw recruits.
3. Don't assume no action is being taken with regards to the nuclear issue. It wouldn't be covert if everyone knew about. Not that I'm saying there is. AS for the Iranians crossing - The Agency is not a border patrol. There is no fence or wall there, and that is a large border.
I certainly don't assume inaction on proliferation. But I would surmise that Mossad is heavily involved, perhaps more so than the CIA.
Regarding the crossings, I also don't know what could be done specifically. But shouldn't identified Iranian agents be arrested and tried as spies?
In addition, the CIA is not autonomous in Iraq. It is not our country. The agencies are operating thousands of miles from their bases in a language and culture not many understand with no real possibility of blending in.
This appears to be the major problem. That's where local informants would come in, I presume, or perhaps vetted members of the IA. But is that really an excuse? This appears to me to be a obstacle that, while surely daunting, is certainly not insurmountable.
If you want to compare with Israel, let's discuss a hypothetical situation in which the CIA is operating in Canada.
Shabbak operates in the territories. But Mossad has a long history of successes around the globe, not the least of which being identifying the nuclear reactors in Iraq a couple decades ago. In any case, I made clear that Israel has a great advantage in terms of its proximity with the Palestinians. But the United States enjoy much greater support in Iraq than Israel does in its territories. That, it seems to me, should facilitate the recruitment of useful informants, not obstruct it.
EDIT: I guess the question I'm asking is, what realistic objectives have been or should be set for the CIA and the American intelligence community in general with regards to Al Qaeda in Iraq and Zarqawi's network as a whole? Or with regards to Iranian influence -- both political and terrorist -- in Iraq and throughout the Muslim world? And are the problems standing in the way of realizing the objectives set for our intelligence organizations attributable exclusively to external sources (e.g., impenetrability of terrorist organizations) or to internal ones (e.g., ineffective leadership, lack of adaptability) as well?
The Reaper
05-07-2006, 20:15
Danila:
AFAIK, you have no inside knowledge of CIA actions, agents, or operations.
It occurs to me that for someone without that knowledge, you are assuming much. This would be akin to us pronouncing the Mossad as ineffective because we have heard of few successes. In most cases, intel agencies do not boast or their exploits, or even acknowlege them. Frankly, we could probably be doing a better job, but we are still trying to reestablish an agency which was stripped 30 years ago and left to founder from 1992-2000. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and presume that they are doing the best they can.
I will say that one of the biggest foreign intel collectors in the US is the Israeli government. That is public knowledge.
TR
Danila:
AFAIK, you have no inside knowledge of CIA actions, agents, or operations.
It occurs to me that for someone without that knowledge, you are assuming much. This would be akin to us pronouncing the Mossad as ineffective because we have heard of few successes. In most cases, intel agencies do not boast or their exploits, or even acknowlege them. Frankly, we could probably be doing a better job, but we are still trying to reestablish an agency which was stripped 30 years ago and left to founder from 1992-2000. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and presume that they are doing the best they can.
I will say that one of the biggest foreign intel collectors in the US is the Israeli government. That is public knowledge.
TR
Sir,
Admittedly, I know next to nothing specific about the CIA. But the failures here appear to be great and wide-ranging. The two I see as the greatest are:
1. The massive expansion of Zarqawi's network in worldwide reach and operational capabilities.
2. Iran's successful infiltration of Iraq's government and Iranian terrorist influence in Iraq.
The CIA doesn't make public much of what it does. We know, however, what it hasn't done. When the problems facing American foreign policy in the Middle East stem from intelligence failures, is the best the CIA can do good enough? And how much blame should the man in charge of the CIA take?
Dan
NousDefionsDoc
05-07-2006, 22:06
I have to respectfully disagree with that analogy. Hamas is part of the pan-Arab Muslim Brotherhood and receives funding and recruits from multiple Muslim nations, including Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Egypt. Probably Jordan as well, considering the huge Palestinian population there. And even if the point were to be ceded, the IDF and Shabbak must contend with Jihad Islami, PFLP, PRC, Tanzim, Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and now Zarqawi's Al Qaeda. Recruits -- males and females as young as 16 -- join an organization, receive training in a matter of days or weeks, and are sent off with explosives. This is in addition to the estimated 10,000 to 20,000 permanent "employees" of the terror organizations. It appears something similar is true in Iraq. The command structure of AQ in Iraq appears fairly fixed with identifiable leaders, and recruits for suicide bombings are generally not longtime members but raw recruits.
Stop whining. Ok fine, Canada as part of the english commonwealth. Happy now?
You assume a lot of shit.
The point is you can't compare working in your own backyard with working half-way around the world. How hard do you think it would be for us to totally fuck up Mexico and Central America if we really wanted to?
If you don't like the way the CIA is run and you think you can do better, go sign up. But don't come on here and criticize them for not showing results in the field.
And just so you'll know, the Mossad ain't all that and a bag of chips and some of us on here know it. You want to start pointing fingers at intel agencies, that shit goes both ways.
The massive expansion of Zarqawi's network in worldwide reach and operational capabilities. Bullshit.
Iran's successful infiltration of Iraq's government and Iranian terrorist influence in Iraq.
Lib talking points.
The CIA doesn't make public much of what it does. We know, however, what it hasn't done. When the problems facing American foreign policy in the Middle East stem from intelligence failures, is the best the CIA can do good enough? And how much blame should the man in charge of the CIA take?
Intelligence is a tool to support decision makers and shooters, it is not a panacea. Director Goss likely left or was forced out for political matters, not as a result of possible failures.
The United States and Israel on balance are a lot alike, but history and locale dictate that Israel focuses its statecraft squarely on physical survival, thereby placing a large emphasis on military and intelligence matters. This often differs from American statecraft. So I disagree with the comparison between the two. The best Mossad/IDF can do, is good enough because Israel lives another day. The best CIA/DoD can do is inhibited by where our priorities lay.
If you want to compare with Israel, let's discuss a hypothetical situation in which the CIA is operating in Canada.
Interesting.
The analogy to the IRA was enlightened.
I would hope the enlightenment extends beyond Montreal where HAMAS is concerned. Likewise AQ?
Without furher commentary, the asessment of our British Commenwealth appears to be apt. ;)
Stop whining.
Doc,
I don't whine, and it's too bad if that's what you thought I was doing. I'm not here to talk up Israel against the United States, nor am I here to criticize America. I do love Israel but America is my home. It's the country that took my parents in with open arms as they fled the Soviet Union. If I have an allegiance -- and I do -- it is, first and foremost, to the United States, which I love more than any other nation in the world.
I'm not going to join the CIA tomorrow or the day after because I'm still just a young guy in college. I've got another year left and then I'll be joining the Army, after which I may decide to stay in the military or perhaps work for the CIA or another intelligence agency. But whether or not I've worked for the CIA has no bearing on whether we can discuss the CIA's successes and failures based on what the public knows and what you SF Soldiers are permitted and willing to share. I'm here to learn from you and the other "Quiet Professionals," and my purpose in this thread was to see what you all thought about DEBKAfile's analysis for my own personal edification.
From what I understand, you're saying that their allegations that the CIA under Goss has failed to provide the intelligence necessary to curb the growth of Zarqawi's AQ wing are either unfair based on realistic expectations of the CIA's abilities or simply unfounded based on the realities on the ground. If so, I thank you, and I suppose that's the end of the discussion. Otherwise, I would be interested in learning whether the CIA could, in fact, do more, and if a change of leadership would facilitate such improvements.
Dan
NousDefionsDoc
05-08-2006, 12:10
Read your posts again.
This topic cannot be discussed further on an open board on the internet as far as I am concerned. Have a nice day.