View Full Version : I went to a War and a Garrison broke out!
VelociMorte
04-12-2006, 08:01
No shit... I'm downrange, in the chow hall, and people are wearing their body armor with a reflective belt over it. Now I'm no expert, but in my mind, if you are in an area where you need to wear body armor, the last thing you need is to be draped in a neon-yellow reflector.
Team Sergeant
04-12-2006, 08:31
Safety First!:rolleyes:
tyrsnbdr
04-12-2006, 08:40
Now your talking about my location. I got stopped by a CSM because I was not wearing my roadguard belt at night. Lucky, for me, his LTC was with him, so I didn't tell him what I tought.
No shit... I'm downrange, in the chow hall, and people are wearing their body armor with a reflective belt over it. Now I'm no expert, but in my mind, if you are in an area where you need to wear body armor, the last thing you need is to be draped in a neon-yellow reflector.
Engaging the brain pan should work at all levels. Body armor is to stop things that are flying throught the air quickly. Not all weapons are "sight" based. Reflective belts are to help people been seen for some reason.
At you base has there been a number of individuals hit by military vehicles during times of limited visablitly? Did the CoC put out a memo that all soldiers wear the belt when wandering around on the compound? Or did some CSM just dream it up as a fashion statement.
A silly accident has been the death of many a soldier.
While attached to a Patriot missile battery on D-Day '03, the ADA's first sergeant came over the net, as we were rolling through the berm into indian country, and instructed everyone to make sure NO one was locked and loaded, as he didn't want any negligent discharges. :mad:
Also, about 2 days into the invasion, we were quite alarmed when we drove by a convoy of soldiers in MOPP 4, as we were only at MOPP 2. We stopped one of their vehicles and they informed us that they were just conducting an exercise...in the middle of the Iraqi desert, during combat operations:(
It shouldn't matter where you are. Common sense SHOULD prevail, but often times doesn't. Shit like haveing to carry around un-loaded weapons, with no magazines on your person. Why carry around the thing if you aint/cant use the thing? Or walk around making "on the spot corrections" for hands in pockets or sunglasses on heads when their troops, and themselves for that matter, are having 2-3 AD/ND's per day in the chow line. Point is, train for war, not the damn parade field! Rant over, Have a good 'un
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 10:03
What, you mean like a roadguard vest?
Uh uh, you're making that up. Nobody's that dumb.
The Reaper
04-12-2006, 10:13
What, you mean like a roadguard vest?
Uh uh, you're making that up. Nobody's that dumb.
Naw, he means the little 2" wide reflective belt that they make you wear while doing PT, wearing a ruck, or riding a bike. Roadguard vests are obsolete.
I can direct you to the 82nd's SOP for how it has to be placed on the ruck, if you want.:D
TR
Team Sergeant
04-12-2006, 10:26
While attached to a Patriot missile battery on D-Day '03, the ADA's first sergeant came over the net, as we were rolling through the berm into indian country, and instructed everyone to make sure NO one was locked and loaded, as he didn't want any negligent discharges. :mad:
1990 Desert Shield 1991 Desert Storm
I was a SFC assigned to SOCCENT for a mission. Was at KKMC and KFIA and other places.... I was prepared for a war.
Nothing prepared me for amount of "self inflicted" gunshot wounds, negligent discharges etc I saw in the months leading up to the war..... I personally witnessed at least 10 maybe 20negligent discharges and most came from non-combatants such as support soldiers....... I was not amazed walking on the "highway of death" I was amazed by all the self inflicted wounds our troops commited......
Having to disarm a unit is ludicrous. I would relieve the commander and 1SGT for their inability to train and lead their troops........
TS
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 10:26
No thanks Sir, I'll pass.
The Reaper
04-12-2006, 10:34
1990 Desert Shield 1991 Desert Storm
I was a SFC assigned to SOCCENT for a mission. Was at KKMC and KFIA and other places.... I was prepared for a war.
Nothing prepared me for amount of "self inflicted" gunshot wounds, negligent discharges etc I saw in the months leading up to the war..... I personally witnessed at least 10 maybe 20negligent discharges and most came from non-combatants such as support soldiers....... I was not amazed walking on the "highway of death" I was amazed by all the self inflicted wounds our troops commited......
Having to disarm a unit is ludicrous. I would relieve the commander and 1SGT for their inability to train and lead their troops........
TS
This is a direct result of hoplophobia in our society, the absolute discouragement kid's learning about firearms, and the "safety first", zero defect mentality that keeps soldiers from handling loaded weapons, except on the firing line.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 10:36
I agree TS.
TS and TR,
I agree with you 100%. It was a very sobering experience for me as a National Guard infantry soldier giving classes to the RA troops(Patriot personnel) on the care and use of not only their crew served weapons, but M-16's as well. It was this lack of training that manifested itself in the 507th Maintenance Company tragedy (they were the maintenance unit assigned to our ADA parent unit). I could write a book on the lunacy that we took part in while securing and hand-holding the Patriots through the desert to Baghdad.
Luckily, most of our senior NCO's had prior combat experience (to include one Vietnam Vet) and did not allow our unit to develop the bad habits that seemed to prevail in the ADA and maintenance units.
Members of this board:
It is true. Reflective vests to be worn at all times. MPs writing tickets for not wearing them.. Dont park here....dont park there. The zero defect, safety concious nazis are out of control. Those fat bastards back in the rear are so busy licking ice cream cones and going to green bean that they worry about dumb shit that doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things.
When we go down there for opfunds and whatnot we just tell them "I don't know what you're talking about". We just keep a low profile or wear a combination of t-shirts, black fleece or a ball cap to look like KBR guys. After two or three days there we are ready to get out of there and be back at the FOB.
Sorry for the rant. It just sucks that in the Land of Dairy Queen and Burger King they get paid the same as those getting shot at and shittin in a wooden box.
Members of this board:
It is true. Reflective vests to be worn at all times.......
Sorry for the rant. It just sucks that in the Land of Dairy Queen and Burger King they get paid the same as those getting shot at and shittin in a wooden box.
Guys;
I'm beginging to wonder if there are any NCOs in the Army anymore. A lot of rants about something going down but no "why" yet.
As a no time in grade SF SGM I loved to wander into the nearest CSM's office of the SOF or Conventional Unit we were dealing with/near/around/for whatever. A few little chats works wonders in cooperation and understanding. In other words, I got about 80% of what I wanted and the CSM though he got about 90% of what he wanted.
I'd warn my guys not to PO the CSM's toadies over nit-noy shit but I think most of them took that as a dare into just how far they could edge over the line. Oh well, time for another chat. They worked and I chatted.
Pete
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-12-2006, 13:41
negligent discharges
TS
I sent folks packing for these. Your first time was your last!
Warrior-Mentor
04-12-2006, 14:51
Body armor is to stop things that are flying through the air quickly.
At you base has there been a number of individuals hit by military vehicles during times of limited visablitly? Did the CoC put out a memo that all soldiers wear the belt when wandering around on the compound? Or did some CSM just dream it up as a fashion statement.
A silly accident has been the death of many a soldier.
Pete,
You are right about that. The safety slides that we're getting sent cover all Army fatalies during a given time period and they cover the stupid ones that shouldn't happen...so now guys are wearing things that make them bigger targets in a combat zone to avoid getting run over by a driver who's not paying attention.
Ridiculous knee jerk stuff - or incompetent NCOs who don't know what they should be focusing on in a combat zone so they go with what they know...garrison stuff.
While my old team sergeant was in AFG, there was a long e-mail that came out by the JTF CSM about enforcing standards and how you should salute officers and how he'd flame guys who didn't. The next day, Rex was out running and (of course) sees the JTF commander - so he figures, I better salute despite common sense. Instead of returning the salute, the JTF Commander said good morning and kept on running. Why didn't he correct his CSM and have him retract the stupid e-mail. I just don't know...
Enough for now.
JM
The Army never stops to amaze me.
I remember going to a TF TOC for a meeting, at the time it was basically a tent city. We were standing outside smoking and shooting the $h!t. The Div DCO came up, salutes and taking with each other.
Then the TF S-3 OIC said why don't you have your RBA and Hemet's with you. We knew that the DCO "crew" was asking. We all there (SF) were waiting for something. My ODA Cmdr said we don't wear Helmets and our Body Armor is in our vehicles. The DCO or CoS said well you should have it with you. We looked all puzzled, like why. Why was asked, you never know when we will have a mortar attack. So we brushed it off. The S-3 OIC said well Army Reg states you must were helemts during movements in a military vehciles. Couldn't believe the statement. My Cmdr said I'll remember that the next trip.
So we walked in to the tents. Everyone pretty much took off their gear. My Cmdr said, to the S3 MAJ so why do you take it off now. He said yes why not. we're inside now. My Cmdr said I hope you don't think these tents will stop a mortar round. He looked at him, tilled his head. And said why not. The tents were harden with plywood floors, walls, and roofs.
I said aloud, guess he's never seen a mortar round go off near by. It didn't go over good.
Some people just amaze. Do they really teach this stuff??
The Army never stops to amaze me.......Some people just amaze. Do they really teach this stuff??
Guys
The land of the conventional Army is indeed a strange place. Once you get into the circle made up of 1SGs, S-3 Officers, CSMs and GOs you might think everybody has lost whatever bit of common sense God gave them.
Actions guys do no good by ranting and raving to the random individuals that try to enforce the local dictates of the chain of command/concern. In a pissing contest on "their" ground we are on the short end of the stick.
I ask again, where are all the senior SF guys, the SGMs and CSMs, LTCs and COLs? I've never had a CSM of a major conventional unit kick me out of one of his meetings. I'd find out when he was having them and mention that in the hopes of "jointness" and better working relationships I or my S-3 would like to sit in. "Ya' know, help the flow of information."
We'd let them in on just enough small stuff that they though they were "in the know" while we mined them for everything we could lay hands on. In the process we were now known to upper levels throughout the unit. We used that to infiltrate every place in their system that we needed to go.
After a while we'd bring in some of the A team guys, intro them and then they were on their own. It really was funny in a way but it works. Use their own system against them. A little smoogin' greases the skids in a number of places.
Also by being in these meetings you can "head off" or "heads up" your guys on stupid stuff about to hit the fan.
SF guys trained to work with little people in strange lands should be able to come up with "a plan" to subdue the strange land of conventional folks. After all, we are smarter than they are. Are we?
Pete
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 18:03
I sent folks packing for these. Your first time was your last!
Our Boss did the same Sir. Good policy.
The Reaper
04-12-2006, 18:21
Hearts and minds guys.
The CSM in our battalion had the lowest GT Score in the unit.
We have a 110 requirement for a reason. Use what you got.
TR
BMT (RIP)
04-12-2006, 18:52
There are more ways than one to skin a cat!!
BMT
Master Cat Skinner
I think part of the problem with the whole write you a ticket thing came from the fact that for about 3 or 4 weeks now there have been 2 MP companies sitting in Camp Koele doing absolutely jack. Just within the past couple days the guys from 18th BDE took off, and now some more of the 272nd guys left for FOBs, but prior to that their day pretty much consisted of formation, weapons maintenance, formation, lunch, formation, sit around, formation, dinner, formation, bed... And do it all again the next day. So of course somebody said, "hey, these guys don't have a job right now. We need to come up with something for them to do..."
Make sure you have your belt on when you're going to the shower too...
Team Sergeant
04-13-2006, 09:41
“SERGEANT MAJOR!!!! ARE THE TROOPS HAPPY?”
“SIR, YES SIR”
“WELL LETS DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AND MUCK AROUND WITH THEM A BIT, A-WHAT”
“SIR, YES SIR”
Team Sergeant
While "Sympathy" can be found in the dictionary between "Shit" and "Syphilis", none will be found on this board.
There was a CSM from a Transprtation unit on a FOB (he was a Fobbit), he spent his time wandering about the FOB making sure his people had their boonie caps on correctly - in other words they had to have that little chin string tied underneath their chin. He tried to make our joe's follow his policy, though he was not in our chain of command.
He really pissed our company commander off, eventually a rather public shouting match ensued, the CSM lost and he never messed with us again.
TS is right. It ain't goin' away so work around it, use it or forget it and go back to the team house. Keep your head down and take care of your folks. Pete's got it nailed, always thought you'd be a good SGM. I shot my mouth off and it got me nowhere. "Cept pissed at and pissed on. "Q".
The Reaper
04-13-2006, 10:49
There was a CSM from a Transprtation unit on a FOB (he was a Fobbit), he spent his time wandering about the FOB making sure his people had their boonie caps on correctly - in other words they had to have that little chin string tied underneath their chin. He tried to make our joe's follow his policy, though he was not in our chain of command.
He really pissed our company commander off, eventually a rather public shouting match ensued, the CSM lost and he never messed with us again.
I cut the strings off of mine.
At times, I have also been known to tell annoying CSMs attempting to interfere with the way our team was being run to go someplace else and bother them. Not a real career enhancer, but the right thing to do.
Enforcing standards is one thing, harrassing people over chickenshit is another matter altogther.
TR
Guys
The land of the conventional Army is indeed a strange place. Once you get into the circle made up of 1SGs, S-3 Officers, CSMs and GOs you might think everybody has lost whatever bit of common sense God gave them.
Actions guys do no good by ranting and raving to the random individuals that try to enforce the local dictates of the chain of command/concern. In a pissing contest on "their" ground we are on the short end of the stick.
SF guys trained to work with little people in strange lands should be able to come up with "a plan" to subdue the strange land of conventional folks. After all, we are smarter than they are. Are we?
Its funny how we work with the little people but at times can't work with our own people.
I remember times for being on Carson to many time OCONUS that we ran into CSMs or LTC/COLs that had problems with our uniforms or ours ways of life.
SF guys are always some type of a Type-A. But we seem to not be able to say "Roger that" Sir or CSM or whatever to make them go a way. We say well there issues (whatever) or that's the stupidest thing to do. So kind of commit, that's just us. Big heads.
Some left Conventional land because of the BS. But we have to remember that we live in the Conventional Army. Tanks and Helos are the big money items, not the tools of an SF team.
They're all little people. So do we have to work with them?
Over a year ago I was at a Ranger Challenge competition (I know, I know..) at an NG base in Virginia. To my pleasant surprise, there were several SF guys acting as judges there.
The morning after the competition finished, we cleaned our barracks and were ordered to move out to our buses. There, we waited for 3 hours while each barrack was inspected by the same four officers. They wouldn't let us go even once our barrack had been inspected- we had to wait until they were all finished.
While I was waiting near my bus, I noticed that the SF guys had grouped together in a corner and were commenting on how typically inefficient this was, that they should have split the group up to cover more ground more quickly, and let the buses go as their barracks were declared satisfactorily clean.
While this made me want to go SF even more than I already did, it also made me fear those years I would have to spend as an Officer in the conventional forces, taking orders from fellows who worked with the same logic as the officers inspecting the barracks.
Solid
Anything worth doing usually scares the crap out of you and ain't easy. I could bitch to high heaven about the Army and yes even Group. But you know what? I miss it, I loved every bit of it and if God would let me go back I'd do a better job. When you are hooked, being a civilian just makes you puke. And thats what you are left with. Do your job. What comes around goes around. The best advice I can give is Soldier.....Soldier your ass off. "Q".
Goggles Pizano
04-13-2006, 12:50
Anything worth doing usually scares the crap out of you and ain't easy. I could bitch to high heaven about the Army and yes even Group. But you know what? I miss it, I loved every bit of it and if God would let me go back I'd do a better job. When you are hooked, being a civilian just makes you puke. And thats what you are left with. Do your job. What comes around goes around. The best advice I can give is Soldier.....Soldier your ass off. "Q".
With your permission Q I'd like to post this on my locker at work.
The Reaper
04-13-2006, 12:52
You know, sometimes, a little risk assessment is in order.
What does it cost to comply with the chickenshit, versus what is the payoff?
If you are a guest, and you are using their security, facilities, etc., and the enforcer is being reasonable, then it might be a good idea to comply. If they are on your compound, or are acting like asses over small stuff, you might have a different perspective.
A few soldiers flaunting the relaxed grooming standards in Afghanistan cost everyone the right to them.
I tend to believe that if the rules are the same for everyone, are being complied with by their troops, are briefed properly, are not too odious, and don't compromise my security, I can live with them.
You get in my face and start telling me how to carry my weapons, what to wear where on my gear or in my pockets, etc. we might have a problem.
Who knows, you might have to ask them for something later. Which is better, being remembered as good guys, or uncooperative assholes?
TR
Warrior-Mentor
04-13-2006, 13:16
On that note...
I've hear a lot of people say "I wish I'd have stayed in..."
Haven't heard any say "I wish I got out."
JM
Jack Moroney (RIP)
04-13-2006, 14:26
While I was waiting near my bus, I noticed that the SF guys had grouped
While this made me want to go SF even more than I already did, it also made me fear those years I would have to spend as an Officer in the conventional forces, taking orders from fellows who worked with the same logic as the officers inspecting the barracks.
Solid
This logic is pure nonsense. First of all an officer has the same responsibilities in the conventional force as he does in SF and that is to take care of his folks and accomplish the mission. How he choses to do it is up to him. You have shitbirds in both conventional and SF units and you have to stand your ground and deal with the situation regardless of where you are. Also remember, SF officers don't always work for SF commanders or commands and may have to work directly for conventional folks and civilians depending on the situation. A good officer never compromises when it comes to taking care of his folks regardless of the personal consequences to him or his career but that same officer has to make sure that when he goes toe to toe with whatever jerk he has to that his decision to do so may result in having his troops have to execute some tasks because he was too stupid or proud to work around the irritant. There is absolutely nothing wrong about having to eat a little crow once in a while-the objective should be to never have to eat the whole damn flock and/or make your troops suffer for your incompetencies or inability to understand and influence the situation. Psyop is not just for the bad guys, it is also for those you need to manage from below and to do that you need to understand the target audience. When that target audience is your superior (perhaps in rank only) you need to not be sympathetic but empathetic and make an attempt to understand what is driving the situation. Then push the right buttons so you, and more importantly your troops, can live to fight another day.
Be my guest. JM, you're right "I wished I'd of stayed in....". "Q".
Q,
were you ever stationed in Germany? My first team leader on active duty replied to my comments upon getting a new PSG that was a notorious hard ass, "Just Soldier, everything else will work out."
I have since used that same line many times over the years. During a particularly difficult time on a deployment I told my guys the same thing, a few days later one of them had wrote it on the wall in the shitter, which was fine with me, if they don't remember anything else about me - those words will get them by.
Nope. Spent my time south and east on the planet. I gotta give credit for that one to my old man. He told me that when I reenlisted the first time. "Q".
On that note...
I've hear a lot of people say "I wish I'd have stayed in..."
Haven't heard any say "I wish I got out."
JMSome of us have a "history" of doing shit...backasswards.:o
Stay safe.
Monsoon65
04-15-2006, 20:20
Sorry I haven't posted here in a while. Seems like the Real World is always messing up my screwing off time.
I got back from a deployment a few months ago. The permanent party there really had dug in deep with all sorts of interesting rules and regs they liked to have the troops follow.
AFSOC was outnumbered there, and our detco's told us that when some weenie got into our face about something, simply say, "Yes Sir" and walk away; that it wasn't worth the fight. In the ESOG area, tho, it was "Mission first". An example was the wearing of the black fleece jackets. A major no-no on the base, but you were good to go in our area. They were more concerned with the troops being warm and productive then what we wore.