06-16-2004, 15:23
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#16
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngelsSix
Posted by Guy:
My thoughts exactly. No one wants to be the bad guy, but soemtimes you just need to be. Especially when you are in charge.
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I live for it.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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06-16-2004, 16:53
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#17
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngelsSix
No one wants to be the bad guy, but soemtimes you just need to be. Especially when you are in charge.
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You don't know some of the people I know.
Being the bad guy? I can do that. And enjoy it. 
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06-16-2004, 17:45
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#18
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canada, when I have nowhere else to be.
Posts: 91
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
I really can't fathom the libs who want Rumsfeld and Sanchez fired, but want to make excuses for the "commander" of the unit.
Where I went to school, the commander was responsible for everything the unit did or failed to do.
Obviously, this only extends up so far, but last time I checked, it did not skip any levels in between.
TR
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I agree. Responsibility does not, and should not, skip levels. As to where the buck stops, how high (or low) in the organization is appropriate? The soldiers' immediate NCO superiors, the immediate officers in charge, her, the POTUS?
If she is talking outside of her organization, that is a seperate leadership problem that needs correcting in my view, and should not impact the question of how high or low the responsibility for prisoner abuse goes, regardless of any assertions and finger pointing from her, or of others that may get uncomfortable under the spotlight as this develops.
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Maple Flag is offline
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06-16-2004, 18:16
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#19
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maple Flag
I agree. Responsibility does not, and should not, skip levels. As to where the buck stops, how high (or low) in the organization is appropriate? The soldiers' immediate NCO superiors, the immediate officers in charge, her, the POTUS?
If she is talking outside of her organization, that is a seperate leadership problem that needs correcting in my view, and should not impact the question of how high or low the responsibility for prisoner abuse goes, regardless of any assertions and finger pointing from her, or of others that may get uncomfortable under the spotlight as this develops.
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Let me put it this way.
She was an independent MP Brigade commander.
Her next higher would normally be the Corps Commander, who probably has 20 or more Brigade sized units working for him.
Unless it can be proven that he knew, or should have known that this was taking place under her command, the buck should stop with her, after including the Battalion and Company Commanders, and the Platoon leader(s) as well.
Control of the soldiers of their units were their direct responsibility.
Just my .02.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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06-16-2004, 21:33
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#20
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canada, when I have nowhere else to be.
Posts: 91
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I can buy into that from a leadership perspective. Not being well grounded in military law, I'm not going to contribute much to this, but I will be interested to watch how this all plays out. Regardless of the outcomes, it is a highly unfortunate affair for all.
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Maple Flag is offline
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06-16-2004, 22:10
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#21
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 199
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I just finished reading the AR and the FM on EPW and Internment operations. Nowhere in the Responsibilites section does it mention MI. MPs run the camp and the MP commander is responsible for how those people are treated. She was the person in charge. If she was told to mistreat them, she should have refused and reported it. An illegal order is an illegal order, is it not? Her conduct is unbecoming. I knew someone would point out her gender, which is why she embarrasses me further.
Edited for wacko spelling.
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Last edited by P36; 06-17-2004 at 10:28.
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P36 is offline
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06-16-2004, 22:40
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#22
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by P36
An illegal order is an illegal order, is it not? Her conduct is unbecoming.
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Taught in all Basic Training Courses. You do not obey illegal orders.
Quote:
Originally posted by P36
I knew someone would point out her gender, which is why she embarrasses me further.
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Not your fault, or your embarrassment. Only struck me when her whining started getting support from the media and the libs.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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06-17-2004, 09:13
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#23
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: VA
Posts: 1,149
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Posted by Greenhat:
Quote:
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You don't know some of the people I know.
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No, but I do know some people who have told me some stories :wink, wink: about that......oh, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night..........
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Iraq was never lost and Afghanistan was never quite the easy good war. Those in the media too often pile on and follow the polls rather than offer independent analysis. Campaign rhetoric and politics are one thing - the responsibility of governance is quite another.
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AngelsSix is offline
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06-17-2004, 10:34
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#24
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 199
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Taught in all Basic Training Courses. You do not obey illegal orders.
Not your fault, or your embarrassment. Only struck me when her whining started getting support from the media and the libs.
TR
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Yes sir, I know, but it is another occasion that people will use to say, "See, women shouldn't be in the military" ala Hackworth and his crew.
She's a poor example of a leader, but some folks will say it's because she is a woman, that she is a poor leader. That's one of the reasons she infuriates me. There aren't that many female generals around out there, so I'd like to see one in a better light, you know? Ah well.
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P36 is offline
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06-17-2004, 10:45
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#25
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by P36
Yes sir, I know, but it is another occasion that people will use to say, "See, women shouldn't be in the military" ala Hackworth and his crew.
She's a poor example of a leader, but some folks will say it's because she is a woman, that she is a poor leader. That's one of the reasons she infuriates me. There aren't that many female generals around out there, so I'd like to see one in a better light, you know? Ah well.
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Dollar to a doughnut the last female GO most remember is LTG Kennedy.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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06-17-2004, 11:08
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#26
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 199
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I wonder if anyone knows Barbara Fast?
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Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject.
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P36 is offline
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06-17-2004, 11:12
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#27
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Not off the top of my head.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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06-17-2004, 12:40
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#28
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
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CommoGeek is offline
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06-17-2004, 12:43
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#29
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS
Posts: 415
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Quote:
Originally posted by P36
I wonder if anyone knows Barbara Fast?
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Had to google her. Why in the hell HAVEN'T we heard of her?
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...e=Barbara_Fast
What was she doing while all of this was occuring?
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CommoGeek is offline
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06-17-2004, 22:34
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#30
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 199
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MG Fast actually has a pretty decent rep in the community.
The problem we have with this whole scandal is that we are only hearing bits and pieces via the media. What the MPs did was wrong. IF someone on the MI side told them to treat the prisoners that way, then they were wrong as well. It will come out in the investigation, which is not complete.
MI does not control prisoners, MPS do. MPs are responsible to control and safeguard their prisoners IAW the Law of War.
Think of an EPW camp as a library, the internees as books and the MPs as the librarian. MI, well, we just check books out now and then to read them a bit and return them, preferably in the same condition as when we checked 'em out. MI is responsible to treat EPWs and CIs IAW the Law of War, just as the MPs are.
The Abu Ghraib deal looks plainly to be a failure in training (they were a reserve unit), leadership and oversight and EXPERIENCE.
How many of you SF guys have met truly experienced/mature MI folks? Are they the majority or are most of them young, wet behind the ears SPC/SGTs?
IF some interrogator gave bad advice or encouragement, or indeed participated, then he/she was wrong. But the MPS, if they were trained, (which, being reservists, appears they were not) would have known that they should and could have told the MI folks to pound sand.
I think our Army is too small, causing us to rely upon people/units who are unprepared and unfit for the job. That is what I believe it comes down to.
Has anyone heard of the Stanford study on how the worst comes out of people who are put into guard/prisoner roles? Very interesting and it shows that there must be TIGHT control and plenty of oversight on prison ops.
Edited to add that I don't mean to denigrate our reserve or NG people, they are out there sacrificing and dying alongside the AD. These days, many of the units likely have gained much experience, but in general, the reserves were not trained well. They couldn't be. One weekend a month doesn't cut it. We all know how much time it takes to prepare a simple class, let alone an FTX. How could a reserve unit be trained to even close to the same standard?
Ok, that said, the leadership, from that general on down to the Squad leader, should have grabbed their FMS/ARs/SOPs (if they had SOPS) and done at least what I did in 15 minutes. I was listening to the hullabaloo about "MI told us to do this and they were in charge," and since that did not jive with what I know about how we operate, I decided to read up on what the MPs responsibility is in regard to EPW operations. A one hour training session at Joe's Bar and Grill would have given the soldiers involved enough knowledge to know that they were breaking some very major laws. Perhaps they did all that and more and those involved were simply the bad apples that exists within every unit. I hope so. But the general sure doesn't set a stellar example, does she?
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Last edited by P36; 06-18-2004 at 09:09.
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