Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > Kit Tips > Professional Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-28-2004, 13:59   #1
Razor
Quiet Professional
 
Razor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,488
Ruck Frame Considerations

More info I originally posted over at www.geardo.com:

External Frame Rucksacks
External frame rucksacks are a good choice for carrying very heavy or awkward loads. Some external frames, such as the US Army issued LC-series (aka the ALICE), have a protruding bracket on the lower ‘waist’ end that lifts the rucksack ‘bag’ off ones back, allowing a great deal of airflow between one’s back and the bag that helps keep a user cool. The rigid construction of an external frame rucksack allows one to lash boxy or bulky loads (such as ammunition cans, water cans, and radio sets) directly to the frame. This keeps the hard, sharp edges off the user’s back to enhance comfort. External frames are often built from tubular metal, which provides a great deal of strength and durability in all directions, making them less prone to bending and lighter than solid beam members of the same dimensions.
Because many external frame rucksacks partially lift the load away from a user’s back, external frame rucksacks can be more difficult to use in situations where balance is important, such as skiing and rock climbing. The user’s center of gravity shifts away from the body, moving more to the user’s rear. With very heavy loads, a user may have to compensate for this shift by leaning forward, causing strain on the neck from angling one’s head up to see forward (this strain is obviously exacerbated when wearing a helmet or NVGs on one’s head).
There are a number of after-market sources for enhanced shoulder straps and waist belts for the ALICE frame. These items go a long way in making the ALICE rucksack more comfortable to carry. Ergonomic shoulder straps provide more padding than issued straps, and their shape aids in preventing blood-flow cutoff to the arms. A sternum strap helps keep the shoulder straps from shifting to the outside of the chest and shoulders, which helps reduce shoulder fatigue and also assists in prevent blood-flow obstruction. A full, padded waist belt helps bring the load closer to a user’s back, reducing the center of gravity shift, and when worn correctly goes far in transferring the weight of the load from the shoulders to the hips, where it is more easily borne by the body’s skeletal frame.

Internal Frame Rucksacks
Internal frame rucksacks use a system of stiffeners—called stays—that are often built into the rucksack bag itself (or are in contact with the bag’s outer surface), and run parallel to the long (vertical) axis of the rucksack. They nearly always employ a waist belt, which shifts the load from the stays to a user’s hips. Without the belt, the ‘frame’ is useless, and the load is borne solely by the shoulders.
As the stays are very close to or are built into the bag, the load rides very nearly in full contact with a user’s back. While this can trap a great deal of heat, the trade-off is that the load doesn’t shift the user’s center of gravity nearly as much as an external frame. This, combined with a slimmer front-to-back profile, makes the internal frame rucksack a good choice for those needing a greater degree of balance during movement.
Internal frame rucksacks are not the best choice for hard, boxy loads. Items cannot be directly lashed to the stays, and they must be able to fit inside the bag. Additionally, as the bag rides nearly in contact with the user’s back, the load must be carefully packed to ensure sharp edges and corners do not come in contact with the user’s back and cause discomfort or injury. Internal frames are generally not a good choice for very heavy loads, either. The stays of an internal frame rucksack are almost always flat ‘shims’ of metal (often aluminum, due to its strength-to-weight ratio), with their long axis oriented parallel to the surface of the bag. In this orientation, the stays are prone to bending under heavy loads, or under hard use.

Hybrid Frame Rucksacks
Some rucksacks utilize a hybrid frame system, incorporating the best features of both external and internal frames. Kifaru builds one such hybrid system. Both the Extended Mission Rucksack and Multi-Mission Rucksack feature a frame system consisting of flat aluminum stays and a full waist belt that brings the load close to the user’s back (like an internal frame), but is completely removable from the rucksack bag so the user can lash boxy, heavy loads directly to it (like an external frame). The versatility of this frame system makes it an excellent choice for those with widely varying needs, such as a soldier that may find himself carrying the rucksack during a technical rock ascent one day, and toting a 5 gallon water jug or ammunition cans several miles the next.
Razor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 14:01   #2
CPTAUSRET
Gun Pilot
 
CPTAUSRET's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
Razor:

Good overview of "rucks":

Terry
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
CPTAUSRET is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 14:12   #3
Razor
Quiet Professional
 
Razor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,488
Thanks. My favorite ruck, though, was equipped with tracks and had a 600hp engine--I could really carry some gear in that thing.
Razor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 14:12   #4
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,732
Outstanding, thanks!

Then there are the frameless rucks/packs, like the Three Day and Assault packs, though some have slip-in internal frames available.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 14:16   #5
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
Rucksack Modifications

On my last trip to General Jackson's, great place to deplete a checking acct and max out a credit card BTW, I noticed a new molded plastic ruck frame and many retrograde pocket options. Happened to see a young Eighty-Deuce Medic picking up his modified ruck, but did not get a chance to talk to him.

Have any of you with many miles under a ruck had a chance to evaluate the new frame and/or added the new modular pockets to your old "green tick?" If so what are your thought on them in regards to functionality, dependability, and cost effectiveness.

I am not in the market for any of the above (25m target first) just curious.

Thanks,

James
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 15:10   #6
18C4V
Quiet Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,093
Re: Rucksack Modifications

Quote:
Originally posted by Surgicalcric
On my last trip to General Jackson's, great place to deplete a checking acct and max out a credit card BTW, I noticed a new molded plastic ruck frame and many retrograde pocket options. Happened to see a young Eighty-Deuce Medic picking up his modified ruck, but did not get a chance to talk to him.

Have any of you with many miles under a ruck had a chance to evaluate the new frame and/or added the new modular pockets to your old "green tick?" If so what are your thought on them in regards to functionality, dependability, and cost effectiveness.

I am not in the market for any of the above (25m target first) just curious.

Thanks,

James
James,
I know what you mean about General Jackson. I've spent quite a huge amount of money with them and the sewing place next door.

As for rucks, I've got three of them. Large modified Alice with all the bells and whistles (pouches, etc), MOLLE, and the Spears ruck. For me it all depends on what type of mission, environment, and if you're wearing body armour. I brought all 3 with me overseas and I pretty much used the ALICE. Some of the other guys had the blackhawk ruck or the one from tactical tailor. Granted we didn't do much dismounted with rucks, but did with assault packs.

As for complexion...well...the MOLLE comes with a video on how to put it together!!

Remember, you can't use modified rucks in the SFQC.
18C4V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 17:05   #7
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
BEK1411:

GJ is surely the place to stay away from if you dont ave an excess of money. I managed to pick up a few things for my father's shadow box and some new socks. Then D9 twisted my arm once we made our way over to the Wellco factory outlet and I ended up buying another pair of boots. Like I need more than I have now.

Now as to Rucks; I dont plan on modifying the one I have other than buying a new frame. The one I have is darn near shot. I was thinking about purchasing the molded frame instead of another aluminum one, but needed some feedback on them in particular.

The one that young Paratrooper was picking up looked pretty HSLD, but I have no need for that stuff yet, as the standard large I have hauls the 55lbs of sand I have in it just fine. The sand does not take up much room so I would accomplish by modifying it is add more room to store air in. lol

As for other packs, I have a STOMP II that was given to me and so far I love that thing. I actually moved my personal medical gear from an Pacific LSP bag to it and I have room left over. I have not put it through the ringer like some of the SF and Ranger medics have put their bags through, but it is holding up thus far and I am pretty rough on my stuff. And since it was given to me I dont suppose I can complain about it any.

Who makes the SPEARS pack? You like it thus far?

Thanks Brien for your insight. Any others?

James D
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 18:30   #8
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,732
James:

You are wrong.

You cannot come close to spending as much on gear in GJs and Combat Footgear as you can in the new Lightfighter store over on Bragg Blvd.

Next time you are in town, I will take you there, and you will see.

Gucci gear out the Wazoo.

Can you say "Paraclete"? Sure, I knew you could.

Wellco's new Desert boot is excellent, BTW.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 18:56   #9
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
Sir:

NDD has put a block on anymore visits to Bragg until I TDY there for SOPC-I. lol

How long has Lightfighter had a store there? And depending on that answer why did you hold out on that piece of intel last time? I dont think Paraclete BA will do me any good at this point, although I have been to their website to look around. Sure would like to have one but I dont think purchasing one will get me any closer to paying off my debt. Darn DSS and their debt-to-income scale. Despite NDD, sorry Sarn't, I may have to make yet another trip. I do need to pick up a TTFRB and a new frame for my ruck.

On the subject of footwear. I did not get the desert boot, but I did however purchase the one that resembles the Belleville 700. The salesman told us the Army is to begin issuing them to IADT soldiers beginning in Feb. Apparently the new GI's will be issued one pair of the Wellco's and one pair of the leather combat boot. I have been wearing the new pair at the FD and they have a really good fit and a very comfortable sole.

JD
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 19:43   #10
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,732
Surge:

I would have suspected House 6 put a stop to the visits after the bills came in.

LF has been open about three weeks. Besides, I was told that you were on a low budget op. Paraclete makes a lot more than just body armor carriers, BTW. They have lots of med bags, pouches, vests, etc. Will go if you get in before SFAS.

The new combat boot is very nice, and the Wellco store is a great deal.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2004, 23:30   #11
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Surge:

LF has been open about three weeks. Besides, I was told that you were on a low budget op. Paraclete makes a lot more than just body armor carriers, BTW. They have lots of med bags, pouches, vests, etc. Will go if you get in before SFAS.

TR
Well I was supposd to be on a low budget trip. I kind of blew that after GJ and the Wellco Outlet store. It is amazng how fast the small things add up.

Depending on the projected dates for SFAS for me, I may need to come back up and pick up a few things. I could just order them via internet, but I think Huske's might need a visit as well.

I have a pair of boots that need Mr Clark's attention as well but I think I may wait since I have two pair of jungles to break in better.


Well see.

JD
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2004, 03:18   #12
DDD
Quiet Professional
 
DDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 298
For rucksack mods check out the Tactical Tailor. He has a web site. I used one of his rucks for the last couple years I was in and it performed great.
DDD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mystery Ranch ALICE frame militarymoron Professional Gear 14 07-21-2007 13:45
ID this ruck Razor Professional Gear 15 06-11-2004 23:23
Packing your ruck.... D9 (RIP) Special Forces Fieldcraft 11 02-25-2004 14:15
Ruck Designs Razor Professional Gear 5 02-09-2004 00:19



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:36.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies