"SOF prefers 9mm over .45

[Team Sergeant]

9mm; A .45 round set to stun.........

Why did the US military first adopt the .45? (Those that do NOT learn from history are dammed to repeat it....)

Then we got sissy leadership and changed the army sidearm to a 9mm so all the sissies could at least hold the weapon up.

SF was force fed the 9mm.

I'm sure they would rather have the .45 back as their round of choice. There are no sissies in Special Forces (that I know of).

And I'm sure the SEALS/MARSOC would say the same thing. (AFSOC would rather employ .22's.......)

[UWOA (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

9mm; A .45 round set to stun.........

[Bechorg]

Give me the lightest and smallest pistol as possible that can do the job.

How many pistol kills in both OIF-OEF? Probably less than 5-10?

For something as rarely used as a pistol, give me something that will let me carry more water/batteries/food.

[Loadsmasher]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Yea and get this. Many soldiers fire less than 100 rounds per year including the 40 qualification rounds because ammo is to expensive. I have always said the Army teaches solders how to fire their weapons not to shoot.

Unless it's the last day of the range and you have 2000 rounds left and the 3 shop says "we cant turn in ammo".

[Box]

While this will clearly stir up some shit as an unintended consequence, I am going to say it anyway...


Would I rather have a pistol chambered for .45?
Any day of the week, and twice on sunday.
...but for now I am still armed with an M9.

I don't even bother to jockey for the cool-guy Glock even though we do have a few in the company. Its a short barrelled 9mm suffereing from a magazine shortage so why bother. Besdies, I can find M9 mags in decent quanties almost anywhere on the planet...
You have to beg, borrow, threaten, and steal just to find enough Glock mags to go around and if you DO find issued glocks mags, they dont fit in the SFLC ammo pouches, which means you have to go out and buy your own ammo pouches.
...oh, and a holster. You need a new holster too.

10 years and numerous trips to Iraq and Afghanistan and I have yet to find myself in a situation where I said to myself... FUCK, I really wish I had a Glock or a .45 right now.
...but yes, perfect world, I'd like a ,45 caliber Glock.
Until then, I am more than comfortable carrying my M9 into any situation Uncle Sam forces me into.


That being said, some of the same peronalities I have dealt with in my years that SWEAR you can't kill a man with a 9mm round are some of the first guys to reach for an H&K MP5 if they get within arms reach of it because they "are operating out of vehicles" and need the compact size. 9mm caliber be damned.

...and the folks that SWEAR you can't kill a man with anything smaller than 6.5mm bullets are the same ones that reach for the 10inch barrel for their M-4. Long range accuracy and improved bullet performance be dammned


It has been my experience that any weapon of any caliber, when shot repeatedly at the center of someones torso will incapacitate and kill an assailant. If you are at close range and 15-30 rounds rapidly fired into the torso does not work, then the chances are that a few less rounds form a slightly larger caliber won't really save the day.
I have had SF "operators" squirt a couple of magazines worth of 7.62 from the end of a SCAR, only to find that there are no dead guys in the tree line.
...hell, had a team nearly go black on mini-gun ammo into the same tree line and didn't kill anybody.

Afgan Commandos on the same operation killed a PKM gunner with a few simple 5.56 rounds out of an M-4.
Caliber meant exactly DICK that particular day.
...sadly it would seem that being a well equipped green beret in and of it self doesn't provide one stop bullet effect either.
Caliber is only as important to me as the availablity of magazines, mag pouches and ammo resupply.
I have 5.56 and 9mm as my carry weapons.

...and I am not about to pay for anything out of my own pocket.



In contrast, I have watched a buck run 100 yards after a fatal shot with a 180 grain 30-06 that penetrated both lungs.
If the "fuck I'm shot-I better get the fuck out of here" response works with dumb animals, doesn't it stand to reason that an amped up human that feels his life leaking out of him would dump a little adrenalin into his system and decide not to immediately fall down and die?

Caliber is only a factor, it is not a solution. A .45 round in the arm wont get the same result as a 9mm round in the liver.
...neither are center mass hits, but one is probably going to be fatal

Just my opinion... I have no relevant credentials beyond my own meandering observations.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Billy L-bach

While this will clearly stir up some shit as an unintended consequence, I am going to say it anyway...


Would I rather have a pistol chambered for .45?
Any day of the week, and twice on sunday.
...but for now I am still armed with an M9.

I don't even bother to jockey for the cool-guy Glock even though we do have a few in the company. Its a short barrelled 9mm suffereing from a magazine shortage so why bother. Besdies, I can find M9 mags in decent quanties almost anywhere on the planet...
You have to beg, borrow, threaten, and steal just to find enough Glock mags to go around and if you DO find issued glocks mags, they dont fit in the SFLC ammo pouches, which means you have to go out and buy your own ammo pouches.
...oh, and a holster. You need a new holster too.

10 years and numerous trips to Iraq and Afghanistan and I have yet to find myself in a situation where I said to myself... FUCK, I really wish I had a Glock or a .45 right now.
...but yes, perfect world, I'd like a ,45 caliber Glock.
Until then, I am more than comfortable carrying my M9 into any situation Uncle Sam forces me into.


That being said, some of the same peronalities I have dealt with in my years that SWEAR you can't kill a man with a 9mm round are some of the first guys to reach for an H&K MP5 if they get within arms reach of it because they "are operating out of vehicles" and need the compact size. 9mm caliber be damned.

...and the folks that SWEAR you can't kill a man with anything smaller than 6.5mm bullets are the same ones that reach for the 10inch barrel for their M-4. Long range accuracy and improved bullet performance be dammned


It has been my experience that any weapon of any caliber, when shot repeatedly at the center of someones torso will incapacitate and kill an assailant. If you are at close range and 15-30 rounds rapidly fired into the torso does not work, then the chances are that a few less rounds form a slightly larger caliber won't really save the day.
I have had SF "operators" squirt a couple of magazines worth of 7.62 from the end of a SCAR, only to find that there are no dead guys in the tree line.
...hell, had a team nearly go black on mini-gun ammo into the same tree line and didn't kill anybody.

Afgan Commandos on the same operation killed a PKM gunner with a few simple 5.56 rounds out of an M-4.
Caliber meant exactly DICK that particular day.
...sadly it would seem that being a well equipped green beret in and of it self doesn't provide one stop bullet effect either.
Caliber is only as important to me as the availablity of magazines, mag pouches and ammo resupply.
I have 5.56 and 9mm as my carry weapons.

...and I am not about to pay for anything out of my own pocket.



In contrast, I have watched a buck run 100 yards after a fatal shot with a 180 grain 30-06 that penetrated both lungs.
If the "fuck I'm shot-I better get the fuck out of here" response works with dumb animals, doesn't it stand to reason that an amped up human that feels his life leaking out of him would dump a little adrenalin into his system and decide not to immediately fall down and die?

Caliber is only a factor, it is not a solution. A .45 round in the arm wont get the same result as a 9mm round in the liver.
...neither are center mass hits, but one is probably going to be fatal

Just my opinion... I have no relevant credentials beyond my own meandering observations.

Hush Gentlemen; the SGM has spoken! No sense in muddying the waters with a lot of useless "Me Too's".

[blue02hd]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Hush Gentlemen; the SGM has spoken! No sense in muddying the waters with a lot of useless "Me Too's".

But he didn't really address the "coolness" factor. If you refer back to the first rule of a Green Beret "Always look cool", you would have to agree.

I mean all those support kids and supply guys sporting MP-5's on KAF may be well ahead of us on this on.

I personally preferred 7.62, 50 cal , or MK-19 did my speaking for me,,,,

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by blue02hd

But he didn't really address the "coolness" factor. If you refer back to the first rule of a Green Beret "Always look cool", you would have to agree.

I mean all those support kids and supply guys sporting MP-5's on KAF may be well ahead of us on this on.

I personally preferred 7.62, 50 cal , or MK-19 did my speaking for me,,,,

I know exactly where you're coming from; I prefer max stand-off myself. For the younger guys we should probably review the parable of "The Old Bull and The Young Bull". JDAMs make for a perfect "Old Bull" solution - and NOBODY argues caliber afterwards. That's why we've been fighting to keep a viable JTAC program in SF. Leave "coolness" for the "Young Bulls" (aka kids).

[fox33c1]

Originally Posted by Stras

its not that USSOCOM would say "hey do what you want".....

Let's talk the bullets you're recommending and the ensuing violation of the Geneva Accords with its view of "non-full metal jacket" bullets.. not to mention the international incident that would be all over the front pages for a couple of weeks. and the way of thought for some of the people in charge these days would have you up on War Crimes charges..

There are some very good reasons why NATO ammunition is standardized and in use by many nations...

Sir,

my entire statement (other than the DRT patient) was purely hypothetical. I intended to highlight that better performing ammunition might make a difference (i.e. new 5.56 rounds). That platform is superior to caliber when the consensus is shot placement is the critical element.

I know the reality

18B: here you go... me: WTF is this... 18B: its what we got ...me: fuck

V/R