"Leave No Teacher Standing" - Page 2

**The Reaper** · 03-01-2004, 18:39

Have to disagree as well.

Feeding kids a steady diet of liberal pablum and PC thinking is hardly likely to create critical thinkers.

Do you have kids in school, Jimbo?

TR

Jimbo · 03-01-2004, 18:52

I do not have any kids, much less any in school. However, I have been taught by my father (CCD) and found that my behavior and attitude in his class was markedly different than in school and it had nothing to do with the subject matter. I don't challenge my father (or mother for that matter). I'm probably one of the kids that make you gentelmen take your kids out of school.

Most home schooled kids I have known (admittedly only a few) have excelled at rote learning and that was about it.

Allow me to tack on that the homeschooled kids I knew were from a time when the 'movement' was considerably less organized than it is now.

Sacamuelas · 03-01-2004, 19:36

TR/Bill-
I encountered many home schooled classmates going through my post-high school education. On average, I found them to be just as capable in academic abilities and critical thinking skills. The only deficit that I have seen in the group is that they lack the ability to function well in peer groups. It is the only personal stereotype I have developed about the overall group. IMO, this leads them to have difficulty functioning on teams that don't necessarily agree to do things their way. I think it stems from the "your my #1 student" mentality that they get when mom is their teacher. They always graduate #1 in their class every year. They aren't expected to be responsible for themselves and their education. MOM is always on top of things... No way they can get out of doing their homework and learn the critical lesson of self-reliance.

I have seen this in numerous classmates and it tends to be a strong pattern in home schooled children. This is true of the non-formal independent home school parents and the national association/national convention type of home school parents.

How do most parents try to counter this? Easy and some parents succeed at it. They enroll them in athletics, arts, groups such as boy scouts, etc. This enables them to get the peer to peer interaction that they need . Lessons of winning, teamwork, losing with character, hard work , and competition are learned not taught and read about. Also, these are ways to expose the child to discipline from other adults who have authority over the child.

I have no problem with home schooling although I feel that children that receive an education from a local high school (public or private) have the potential for getting a better education. There are of course exceptions for personal beliefs/value contradictions as well as religious values. I consider special needs kids to be a class of their own and not in this discussion.

Some of the best teachers I have ever been exposed to were from my high school era. That includes fancy boy private college and competitive professional school professors.

I am glad we have a choice though... and I am especially glad that you guys/gals who feel the need for your child have sacrificed what it takes to make it happen. Whether I agree with home schooling for mine or not, I completely respect your decision to do it for your kids.

Jimbo · 03-01-2004, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Feeding kids a steady diet of liberal pablum and PC thinking is hardly likely to create critical thinkers.

It worked for me.

03-01-2004, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo
It worked for me.

What does that say about you?

**The Reaper** · 03-01-2004, 20:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo
It worked for me.

You think pretty highly of yourself, do you?

TR

**Roguish Lawyer** · 03-01-2004, 20:45

I don't see how anyone can generalize about home schooling in the way some are doing here. I would think that the quality of a home school depends -- as it does for a traditional school -- on the quality and commitment of the teachers, the availability of adequate resources (note that I don't think you need much to get to "adequate," so don't go there please), the commitment of the parents and the curriculum. It probably varies quite a bit from home school to home school.

If you're going to generalize, I think the issue really is whether kids lose out on social lessons when they're in a home school. Some home schools network with each other to address this problem, but even then you're going to have an issue. I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the central difference between a home school and a traditional one. Beyond that, you'll see variance on both sides in every direction.

Jimbo · 03-01-2004, 21:07

Not at all. I recognize my deficiencies in many areas, such as: knot tying, procrastination, calculus, weather prediction, connecting on an emotional level, overuse of the passive voice and commas, weak Arabic as well as Urdu and Uzbek, keeping my workshop clean, finding all the tax deductions for which I qualify, using too much index finger on the trigger, etc....

However, I have depended on my ability to think critically to put a roof over my head for the last several years and in my experience, the diversity of thought in the public school system did a better job of preparing students in that area.

**The Reaper** · 03-01-2004, 21:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo
....in my experience, the diversity of thought in the public school system did a better job of preparing students in that area.

Pretty broad generalization for a critical thinker.

Also a bit inflamatory towards the people on this board who do have kids and have chosen to take the time to educate their children themselves.

I do not believe that they would make that investment if they did not think that it was producing a better education than the public school system in their area offered.

Most home schoolers I know enroll their kids in classes at the local schools beyond their expertise, let them participate in athletics, and join in extra-curricular events for socialization.

I am the product of a public school, and my education suffered greatly for it.

My children are in a public school, but it is an exceptional one, and we make small sacrifices to keep them there.

There is little that a parent can accomplish more significant than raising a healthy, well-adjusted, contributing member of our society. A good education is an important part of that, and I again applaud the parents who have chosen to spend the time to make that happen when their local educational options fail to meet their high standards.

TR

Jimbo · 03-01-2004, 21:34

How is that a generalization? I have repeatedly said 'in my experience' to explicitly indicate that I am not referring to all home-schooled children. I certainly do not mean to be inflammatory by pointing out the fact that there are more points of view in a public school, but it is kind of hard to deny the math.

One of my best friends home-schools his children. His wife left her promising career as a Marine officer to take on the responsibility. He and I have had this conversation a number of times. It is just another challenge to the home schooling parent.

**The Reaper** · 03-01-2004, 21:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo
Most home schooled kids I have known (admittedly only a few) have excelled at rote learning and that was about it.

Generalization (admittedly a somewhat limited one)? Could I make that statement about a minority and the proclivities I have observed without offending someone?

A negative statement nonetheless, and implying limited learning.

A home schooling parent wants to teach their kids about Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, reasoning and logic, or philosophy can give them more in a day than the curriculum in public school will provide in 12 years.

TR

Sacamuelas · 03-01-2004, 21:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I don't see how anyone can generalize about home schooling in the way some are doing here. I would think that the quality of a home school depends -- as it does for a traditional school -- on the quality and commitment of the teachers, the availability of adequate resources (note that I don't think you need much to get to "adequate," so don't go there please), the commitment of the parents and the curriculum. It probably varies quite a bit from home school to home school.

If you're going to generalize, I think the issue really is whether kids lose out on social lessons when they're in a home school. Some home schools network with each other to address this problem, but even then you're going to have an issue. I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the central difference between a home school and a traditional one. Beyond that, you'll see variance on both sides in every direction.

Isn't that what I said already? You trying to fight with me b/c you have a toothache? I didn't really put a Sacamuelas curse on you, you know that right? We actually only do that to patients that don't pay their bills. LOL

I agree with you RL (or maybe you agree with me). Do my comments not read as having a similar understanding to what you wrote? If not, I am more tired than I thought.

If that was at Jimbo.. then by all means "pile on". It would be nice to see smeer the queer when I am not the one that is on the bad end of the 12 verses one team. You sympathetic Kurd worshipper! LOL

D9 (RIP) · 03-01-2004, 21:48

As long as we're on the subject of antiquity (somewhat.... TR did mention Plato and Aristotle in his last post), I heard a joke the other day while attending a lecture on homeland defense.

The person giving the lecture is a visiting professor at Rice, and told the story of a student and a professor in a Classical Studies course.

The professor looks at the student, and admonishes him, "Son, are you aware that by the time Alexander the Great was your age - twenty-two - he ruled half the world and had the other half in his sights?"

"Yes," answered the student, "are you aware that his professor was Aristotle?"

LOL, touche.

Sacamuelas · 03-01-2004, 21:57

Since Jimbo tried to save me in the KURD thread, I have to make a little note.

TR, Sir. I see it as a "best of both worlds" opportunity to educate your children if you have parents as involved and dedicated to their child's growth as these home school parents are. It is an option to send your kids to high school and then when they get home educate them on the topics you find important. That way, they get an edge on all the other kids. You also have a chance with this time to critically evaluate and discuss with your child any PC or liberal slanted comments that a teacher exposes them too.

In the end, you would have the best of both worlds.

Again, I really do admire the people who make efforts to raise their children the way the see it best. That is far more admirable than someone who just bitches about the schools, but does nothing to change or alter their childs development. Well, that and BILL is the first person to teach me to sharpen a knife successfully so he must be one HELL of a teacher. LOL

NousDefionsDoc · 03-01-2004, 21:57

Jimbo, you're feeling a little froggy tonight, so let me just go ahead and kick your ass.

Until you have a child, you know shit about children. I used to say "When I have mine, I'll do this, or be like that..." Well I'm here to tell you, you can have all the friends, relatives, whatever with kids, but until its yours, you don't know shit.

I don't know how old your are, but you're over 20, things have changed since you were in school. They've definitely changed since I was.

ALL children are home schooled. You may not remember it, but I'll bet my bottom dollar everything important you learned at home. I could read by the time I was four. I went to school to hang out and get the text books. I might of learned a little.

Nobody cares about a child like the child's parents. Not aunts or uncles, grandparents (close 2nd) and surely not even the best teachers in the world.

The people on this board are for the most part what I would consider to be model citizens. Not just role models for their children, but for the general public. I would let Reaper, Mr. Harsey, Cap, AM or the Team Sergeant teach my kid anytime. I thinks its admirable that they make the effort to ensure their kids grow up as contributing members of society. They have no conflicts of interests whatsoever. Unlike teachers.

I don't see where critical thinking is impaired at all. Who asks the questions is irrelevant. What the question is and how its asked is important. In your particular case, it may have been an issue, but to say it affects all or even most is an extreme over generalization.

The only, the absolute only potential issue I can see with homeschooling in general is the socialization factor. But it has been identified and addressed. As long as the parent is aware of it and acts, it ceases to be a problem.

I have two aunts and had a grandmother that were career teachers. Card carrying members of the NEA or whatever that communist cover organization is. I will not leave them alone in the room with my son for five minutes. Much less let them "teach" him anything.

I am the product of a public school education in a poor county in East Texas. I learned to fight, cheat steal and not get beat up after about the 5th grade. Everything else I learned from my mentors or own my own. There is absolutely nothing wrong with home school and there are no gneralizations, other than the parent cares enough to do it. Other than that it is up to teacher and student. Only in this case there's not 30 more competing for the same attention. And attention is what a child needs more than anything else. Attention and love they can't and shouldn't get from strangers. I only wish I could home school my son. Problem is, he's already smarter than I am.

There are people on this board that are homeschooling their children and no doubt doing a fine job of it. Since you are neither parent nor teacher, wind your neck in.