Eric Haney on Schools as Targets

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

Quote:

"Actually I've seen that fat range Sgt, teaching 40 y/o techniques at more than one LEO range.

Can the SF'ers and SEALS deal with terrorists, I doubt it with current LEO ROE.

We've already seen first hand what two bank robbers can do to 100 of Americas finest, the LAPD. I've no doubt what 5-10 armed terrorists will do if and when it happens, no doubt at all.

TS"

Yes, I have seen them too! As I said, don't judge all LE agencies by the ones you happen to see, with such people.

As for the currant LEO ROE, I don't know that their is a LEO standard set of ROE's for terrorists. They would be handled just like any armed hostage taker or takers, at least on first contact.

As for ROE's, apparently there are some problems in this area for Special Operations people as well. (The case that I mentioned, as well as the on going MARSOC case.

As for the LAPD case, yes we all saw that; however, most departments nation wide, to include LAPD have reviewed that incident and have better prepared LEO's for such incidents. Most departments LEO's are now allowed to carry a carbine or rifle in their patrol vehicle, for that type of incident. BTW: I think the LAPD officers involved in that incident showed extreme bravery under the circumstances.

As for TR's remarks on the LEO's in-action at 'Columbine.' Yes, we all saw that as well. Again, this incident was reviewed and the mistakes noted. This in-action, really stemmed from the SOP that most departments had at the time, especially those with SWAT teams.

The responding units were supposed to form a perimeter and contain the incident, until SWAT arrived to make an entry. The idea was that most individual patrol officers were not equipped or trained to make dynamic entries, etc. Along with an entry by individual LEO's could cause the hostage taker to harm a hostage, as well as the danger to that individual LEO.

(IMHO, if I would have been the responding officer and the hostage taker was shooting hostages, I would have entered and taken action. This may have resulted in a reprimand; however, a few more hostages might still be here.)

Any way, as in the LAPD case, most all LE Departments, have adjusted their SOPs and now first responders (Supervisor or a senior officer) will form teams out of those that respond make an entry and take care of the problem. They will also have the access to so called patrol carbines and/or rifles.

I hope that in all of my discussion here on this subject, that the point that I'm really trying to bring out, is that here in the USA any hostage situation is going to be responded to by local LE. If it is in their jurisdiction, it will be handled by them until such time that is decided it's a federal case, etc.

BTW: I also wonder, given the operational tempo of Special Operations units in the GWOT, (Delta in particular,) if they are prepared to respond, with what the need in a timely manner, to such an incident (Russian school) here in CONUS? How many hours would it take?

Who do you think is going to be there handling the ongoing situation, until HRT or the military (Delta) arrives. My read is, first local LE w/SWAT Team, (if determined its a Federal case,) the local FBI and local FBI SWAT Team, followed by HRT and/or the needed military unit.

[lath_hoy]

I think a lot of you guys have some great concepts, but I think its safe to say that the reality of this will be totally different. I imagine that its just a matter of time until unsatifactory events that Haney perscribes to become real. Imagine this: 10-20 individuals that have no fear in death or in life, occupying a school with small children. LEO's called in, feet are dragged bc they want to wear down the captors for a dynamic entry or what have you. End result demads weren't met or they didn't have them at all and a large portion of 4-11 yearsolds are now casualties. LEO's do an about face, and as bad as they don't want to admit it they do bc political careers are on the line, and they state that they are incapable of dealing with this type of circumstance. So then its turned over to the military and composed of highly skilled/motivated qualified guys. They get a mission and they succeed in their mission. Yet six 5 yearolds get killed by bad guys. The public's perception isn't going to see that out of the 400 students that were daisy chained only 6 were killed. They're going to focus on the media and the six and piss an moan about the # 6 being too high.Hey the way society is to day one would be too much, so 6 translates to heads rolling. Then Dianne Finstein and Ted Kennedy are going to mandate that their cohort Waxman should launch an oversight investigation into the practices of these individuals and their unit. They will thus become inflexible and look at the team members as some sort of super hero’s or jedi’s that are capable of doing non mortal things. So when some thing bad does happen they will hold them accountable and a de-escalation policy would be legislated and the group would have a black eye. Heck even Kathleen Wilder (***ping! ping! on google***) of her female GB fame would be present on news sources and become an analyst for Wolfblitzer and Jane Fonda could fill the celebrity commentary. Wow if that took place just think how many front page articles the New York Times would print. I don't think were ready for that. Until then the waiting game will proceed.
Bad guys: 0
Good guys: 0

Cheers all.

[Razor]

Well aren't you just a font of joy, happiness and optimism?

[ChandlerSniper]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You lost me right there with blackwater.....training people to shoot unarmed civilinas.......sorry charlie, we don't shoot dozens of unarmed civilians and we don't train people to do so.

You need to read more before you start posting in regards to LEO's and Special Operations. We are not the same animal, we will never be the same and we have two different jobs.

Unless you've been trained for war, by warriors, you are not a warrior, period. If you think by having some former felon cop blowing smoke up your ass that you are in fact a warrior" fine, so be it, let me know when you're ready to infiltrate the Tora Bora area and we'll hook you up with 300rds of ammo, one week of rations, six other guys and your mission will be to locate and engage some 50-300 terrorists.

Did I include the fact that if you are spotted you will be engaged (this is a "denied" area) and if engaged during daylight hours you and your team are on their own until dark as we're not going to risk platforms and people to get your ass out of hot water until night fall. Oh, you can surrender to the enemy but you might have forgotten that there is a bounty on your head because you and your Special Operations buddies have already killed hundreds of terrorists, face to face and their kinda pissed so after they torture you they will then send a picture your severed head, with your penis in your mouth to the local media for the world to see.

And freddy, you're there for a year so consider this mission time and time again over the next few years.

Spare me your "killing" and "warrior" mindset.


Team Sergeant

Geesh TS.. tell us how you really feel.

We actually got a glimpse into this situation a couple years ago with 3 teams that were proficient at serving warrants and barricades. We put them into a situation that they were unfamiliar with and you remember how that turned out don`t ya.. and we were a bunch of "nobodys". God forbid this ever happens here cuz it`s gonna be rough.

CS

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by ChandlerSniper

Geesh TS.. tell us how you really feel.

We actually got a glimpse into this situation a couple years ago with 3 teams that were proficient at serving warrants and barricades. We put them into a situation that they were unfamiliar with and you remember how that turned out don`t ya.. and we were a bunch of "nobodys". God forbid this ever happens here cuz it`s gonna be rough.
CS

The day is approaching when the LEO's of this country will learn what some in the military already know. (The Russians and the Israelis understand the situation quite well.)

TS

[ChandlerSniper]

I know what your saying Sir. Agree 100%

I try to convey that fact to my work associates as well, and make them actually think about who it is thats actually going to try and hit us. It just doesn`t sink in with some.

CS

[The Canadian]

In read mode only for the most part. Just putting in my 2 cents to perhaps bring another way of looking at this thread to others.

It doesn't matter what in life you are talking about there will be good and bad in everything. There can be great teachers and poor teachers, so if you want to break it down you can and talk about just the great teachers or just the poor teachers. Teachers, LEO or any other professional people that are doing the great job, like TripWire, are always wanting to talk about the good. TS has focused on the fat range sergeant which is the bad. If you are doing a great job, continue to do so and enjoy your victory quietly. IMO allow the weak components of your profession be in the lime light, that is the best way to get things fixed.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

I had decided to keep out of this discussion, as I thought I had made my point(s) clear; however, I see now that I didn't.

The TS is right in that the military and in particular Special Operations units have their job(s) and procedures and civilian law enforcement have theirs. As for the use of the word 'Warrior,' IMHO I don't think it only applies to soldiers. It's really a state of mind.

Training in both the military and law enforcement can't be judged on the view of one instructor nor that particular time and place one views it. We have good instructors and good training as well as poor instructors and poor training in both places. I'm sure we all can pull up tales of poor training and or instructors.

Law enforcement, have no desire to replace the militaries role, in operations normally handled under their jurisdiction. They (LE) were not designed to fight wars or conduct military special operations. (No matter what some LAPD SWAT (ex-Marine) says.) Yeah, NYPD is larger and has more manpower than some Countries Armies ‚ So what, I doubt that they would win any wars!

Most large department SWAT teams (Or whatever they call them.) are trained and equipped to do the jobs they were created to handle. Most are proficient at those jobs. Their level of training in the needed tactics, marksmanship and weapons skills exceeds the average LEOs training in these areas. The need for such training and skills was why the were developed.

The point that I was trying to make in this thread seems to have been overlooked. This started out as a question of what happens, etc. on a school hostage situation like they had in Russia.

My point was, that under the existing laws here in the USA, the first responders to any hostage situation is going to be the local LE jurisdiction that covers that area. They will find out first hand what the situation is at that scene. Until they do, its unclear what is happening there or what type of incident is happening there.

They will have to contain that situation and deal with it, with the resources they have. If while containing the situation, hostages started to be killed, the LE resources on hand may have to take action. Hopefully a SWAT team or combined SWAT teams from other nearby or State level would add to the manpower. Not the best situation, for a real Russian hostage situation; however, they would be left with little choice.

If no hostage killing was taking place, they would keep the area contained until it is was decided that it was a Federal case and under Federal jurisdiction. In which case the Fed's take over. They (Feds) will than decide who will be used and/or called to deal with the situation. Hopefully, this would result in using the military unit that is needed, with both local, federal LE providing containment.

Yes, in a Russian type of situation, LE maybe in for a shock and their may well be poor tactics, etc used, etc. To prevent this I would hope that LE Departments LE SWAT teams would pre-plan for such cases, using the Russian situation as a bases for that training and develope tactics and combined training with other nearby jurisdictions as well as the Feds to contain such a situation!

The way I see it, like it or not the first responders will be LEOs!

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Hey, just out of curiosity, what did the "warrior" SRO at Columbine do when confronted by two punks with a few small arms and no formal training?

TR

There is a reason that certain people gravitate toward the SRO job..... just like there are reasons that people enlist as a quartermaster or heating and cooling tech in the USAF rather than as an 18x. Not everyone on a PD, nor everyone in the Armed Forces, is a hard charger. At my PD, the people who are SRO's or DARE Officers are what we call "retired on duty".... take it for what it is worth.

That being said, would I like it if Delta were able to handle all domestic terror incidents? Sure. Why the hell not. It isn't a pissing contest for me, and I would loooooove to see the people best trained for the job there to handle it.

But, according to the data that we have compiled, the shooting sprees are lasting less than 20 minutes.... from beginning to end, 20 minutes. Can you get CAG or DevGru to my AO, suited up, and ready to go in under 20 minutes? If not, then it seems pointless to argue this issue.

Are cops the best asset for handling this situation? Hell no. But we may be all you have. Fortunately, we are much better trained, better armed, and better educated than we were 15 years ago. Our active shooter training is pretty thorough, utilizes real locations, and force on force training. Could it be better? Sure, but it's light years ahead of what was being done in the 1990s.

So, in closing, we are not the best people for the job... but in all probability, we are going to be the only people there in time to make a difference.

[The Reaper]

Not looking to start a pissing contest, and I fully understand your comments about the quality of the talent in those positions.

Having said that, as a warrior, I think that the job of the SRO in the event of an active shooter is to call in the SITREP, defend the students to the last round and then go down swinging.

I do not want anyone who does not believe that to be securing the schools of my kids. In fact, that should be part of the requirements and inbrief for an SRO.

Firing a few rounds and abandoning your post (and kids) to run from a couple of untrained punks is cowardice.

There, I said it.

As far as the national players, I think that is why the FBI HRT added regional teams, but you could still be the only people on the ground for several long hours. Do not assume that because the punk kids who have attacked schools so far represent the numbers, weapons, skill level, and expected duration of future threats or contacts. LE needs to plan for multiple contingencies, and worst case scenarios.

TR

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Not looking to start a pissing contest, and I fully understand your comments about the quality of the talent in those positions.

Having said that, as a warrior, I think that the job of the SRO in the event of an active shooter is to call in the SITREP, defend the students to the last round and then go down swinging.

I do not want anyone who does not believe that to be securing the schools of my kids. In fact, that should be part of the requirements and inbrief for an SRO.

Firing a few rounds and abandoning your post (and kids) to run from a couple of untrained punks is cowardice.

There, I said it.

TR

I agree with you 110%. No arguments whatsoever.

My only point was that we shouldn't all be judged by what a DARE cop does or doesn't do.... At my PD, we have full time traditional SWAT, a separate SWAT element that does nothing but high risk search warrants, Fugitive Apprehension Units, Gang, Undercovers, Proactive patrols, etc....... and then we have full time DARE, GREAT, PAL, blah, blah, blah....

Guess where the type "A" personalities end up? It isn't in DARE. LOL

As a matter of fact, if you look at a DARE roster, it is often a list of "never been anywhere, never done anything, laziest mf'ers" from the PD. It is pathetic that they still have a job.

I make no excuses for them, and agree with your points.... I only ask that all LE not be cast into their catogory.

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

As far as the national players, I think that is why the FBI HRT added regional teams, but you could still be the only people on the ground for several long hours. Do not assume that because the punk kids who have attacked schools so far represent the numbers, weapons, skill level, and expected duration of future threats or contacts. LE needs to plan for multiple contingencies, and worst case scenarios.

TR

Understood, but there are only 9 regional teams (to my knowledge), and I know of many, many, many people who are very much unimpressed with their capabilities.... opinions may vary.

Like you said, not every incident is going to be a Columbine.... and we know that. We are trying our best to incorporate the latest intel, techniques, and strategies into our training. We are training in schools, abandoned hospitals, using force on force, etc....

Look, we know we aren't the "A" team when it comes to this stuff, and it is going to be OUR kids and families in these schools if something like this happens. My only point in getting involved in this thread was to say that most all of us would rather have you guys handling these situations, but we also know that, due to time and distance, it is most likely going to fall on us.

Our main job isn't to be a CT force, and we know it..... but we are doing to best that we can to train for this eventuality. I just don't see how 5 pages of people telling us that we "are no Delta, don't have the training, mindset, experience, etc, that the military does" is productive..... we already know that...... but we also know that we are going to be the first, and probably only, people there.

I once heard someone at a class ask, "What is the best SWAT unit in the country?"

The answer? Whichever one can get their asses there in time to make a difference. It doesn't matter how good LA, NY, or Dallas are, because they are in NY, LA, and Dallas........ For most of the active shooter situations that we have seen, the same can be said for Delta and DevGru.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by mdb23

The answer? Whichever one can get their asses there in time to make a difference. It doesn't matter how good LA, NY, or Dallas are, because they are in NY, LA, and Dallas........ For most of the active shooter situations that we have seen, the same can be said for Delta and DevGru.

You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The president of the United States is not going unleash the dogs of war for some moron kids shooting up a school, period. The president didn't unleash the dogs of war for WACO either, wonder why? They were not terrorists holding those people.

Now as an LEO riddle me this, ever wonder WHY the authorities will NOT release the documents relating to the Columbine shooting????

If what I've been told is true a few more need to go to jail or at least be relieved of duty.

TS

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The president of the United States is not going unleash the dogs of war for some moron kids shooting up a school, period. The president didn't unleash the dogs of war for WACO either, wonder why? They were not terrorists holding those people.

Now as an LEO riddle me this, ever wonder WHY the authorities will NOT release the documents relating to the Columbine shooting????

If what I've been told is true a few more need to go to jail or at least be relieved of duty.

TS

I don't know what I'm talking about in regard to what? I know the pres isn't going to cut the "dogs of war" loose on every situation.... my point was, depending on the actions/methods of the terrorists, there may not be time for the dogs of war to even get their boots on before it is over and done with.

If one, five, or ten people go into a school, shopping mall, or daycare and begin actively shooting children, we (Local LE) are the only ones that are close enough to intervene. By the time Tier One assets are called out, it is too late. It doesn't matter if the shooters are sexually repressed HS kids or Pakistani born, Koran memorizing zealots.... it would be over (one way or another) before you could get there.

Was Columbine a clusterf#ck? From what I know, yes. Have we (LE) learned from that as a community and changed damned near everything from the ground up? Yup. Columbine was a first for us (LE), and we have had to adjust and adapt....

If we have some type of Russian Elementary school hostage scenario here in the US, then hell yes, call in the big dogs. Like I said earlier, I don't think you will get any objections from the LE crowd. We'll hold the perimeter and you guys handle it. I am all for it. ..... but if there is active shooting going on, there isn't time to wait.

[x-factor]

I don't have a dog in the LE vs CT fight, but I think there's another question that bears asking.

Lets say we were to enact TS's plan and raise three domestic CT elements: one on the East Coast, one of the West Coast, and one in the Midwest.

(For what its worth (and TS's opinion is certainly more expert than mine), I think three is a pretty conservative estimate for country-wide coverage thats responsive on the kinds of timelines we're talking about. I think you'd need at least another one specifically devoted to the Philly-NYC-Boston "megacity," but thats not really important to my question.)

Point being, with three standing units you're pulling a fair number highly qualified operators (at least 100 by my count) plus all the specialized support elements (intel, air, training, etc) and the funding that goes with them out of the offensive side of the war on terror. Thats a lot of resources for a threat that may never come to pass and for one that, even if it does, may still have come and gone before these elements arrive on scene to take the handoff from local LE.

Plus, if you publicize the capability, which you're going to have to do to get the legislation and funding for it you're giving away a lot of your benefit. Its the kind of thing that can be effectively counter-planned by an aggressor who knows what he's doing.

So my question is...even if we all agreed that a standing domestic CT unit is the ideal solution, is it a realistic one given resource constraints? Would you get a better return on your investment by raising these units or by beefing up overseas CT efforts?