Reloading equipment.

[The Reaper]

Gene:

Yep, .300 Win Mag.

It has put 10 rounds into 4" at 1000.

Not too bad, Jack Hart made a fine barrel that day.

TR

[HOLLiS]

There is a formula, Greenleaf??? something like that it establish bullet by length, to match the twist. Sence I don't make bullets and Bullets are sold by weights, I select the bullet by weight and then see which one works. A Hornday 225 grain may work better than a Sirocco 225 grain, I think for many of us, it is trial and error. Sence density and length are closely similar.. it is 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other which is getter.


Gene, you way ahead on me on bullets, I don't swage. I was thinking of buying a .318 die to make bullets for my 88 Commission.

It has always amazed me, how percise a person can get. I watch a guy go through shims, and he could feel the thickness. He would tell me the thickness of the shim pack, then use a caliper. He was 100%.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Hollis: The first time I loaded precision rifle, I was all worried about the best match primer and weighing the powder charges of the perfect powder to the nearest tenth of a grain. I had been unable to get close to a MOA with the rifle and was getting pretty pissed. I just could not get it to shoot, no matter how closely I weighed the powder....A buddy who was a benchrest guy advised me to BR prep the cases, to measure the bullet seating depth of the chamber and try seating the bullet at various distances off of the rifling,...The .00 group was under an inch at 100. Not good, but better than I had been getting. .05 went under .75". Nice. .10 was under .5", better yet. .15 put five rounds of 220 gr. Match Kings into one ragged hole, just over .25". I was a believer. At .20, it opened back up to about .35" and at .25, it was up to .50" again....Now, it turns out that the gunsmith had chambered it as a single shot for the 240 grainers, and with the rounds seated the way they had to be to shoot tight, I could get one round in the mag and one in the chamber, but that rifle turned out to be a shooting machine. The only mistake the 'smith made was assuming that I knew what I was doing. He had done his part.
TR

TR:

You are describing why I sold my 40XB in 300 WM. Belted magnum brass is a real pain to get consisent. I recall having to buy 400 pieces of Winchester 300 Magnum brass just to get 100 pieces that were reasonably close to each other. Then had to work the brass. Even then some pieces wouldn't chamber well after a shot or two. After four shots with a 1000 yard load the primer pockets would expand to a point where one had to throw away the brass and start all over again. I never really got any performance out of it but am not sure if it was the loads or the effects of recoil and muzzle blast on me.

I have always been of the 'Bigger is Better' sort but learned something about ballistics in the process. In regards this specific incident, I learned that a 6.5/06 firing a 140 grain bullet equaled that 300 WM firing a 190 bullet in terms of exterior ballistics and it gave less than half the recoil in the process. So I switched and never looked back. Shooting needs to be enjoyable IMHO.

If that rifle of yours is twisted for 240's I bet the rifling is 1/9 or 1/8. Real fast for a .30 caliber. Hard on the rifling, particularly with stout loads and 240's. I would be scared to seat those 240's on or in the rifling. A .30 cal that heavy confuses the barrel in terms of it being a bullet or bore obstruction -- he, he, he. You are doing the right thing by seating it off the rifling I believe. Man, that is a heavy bullet.

You have your hands full. Shoot 40 or 60 shots in a day and you will probably have to seat your bullets out a bit to maintain that .015 stand off. It will be noticeable to the eye in terms of overall cartridge length.

Here is one for you and Hollis. A shooting friend of mine and I were squadded together at a 600 yard match last summer. He was shooting a bolt rifle in .260 Remington or .308. Can't remember which one. What I do remember is that he was using virgin brass that he didn't even size down before loading and he didn't weigh out each charge. Just primed it, dumped powder from a measure, and seated the bullet to his standard depth. He shot a 594 of 600 with about 35X. He could have won the match had he at least sized the brass and individually measured the charges but that score is extremely respectable. I think the match winner on that one shot a 599 with 40 or 45X.

Have fun guys!

Gene

[HOLLiS]

Gene,
Excellent shooting. Only thing popped in to my mind is "No amount of planning can replace dumb luck". I think some of the commercial brass today is much better than it use to be. I loaded them with out full length sizing would excellent results. I noticed one brass company had a note, "Bulk brass needs to be full length sized". I think the may explain it.

Some powder measures are pretty consistant, also type of powder used adds to that consistancy. Did he have his powder measure pre-set?

I use to know a guy who was, and probably still is, a 1000M shooter. He uses, I think 6.5 or 6 mm (243) with excellent results. Interesting part is, he is quadriplegic.

[TonyY]

It's interesting to read some of the thoughts on Brass. As mentioned you have to consider what rifle and how it is intended to be used. Norma and Lapua produce very consistant brass with a lot of the prep work already built into the price. Win., Fed., and Remington have all gone down the toilet over the past 10 years and only sell in bulk, if at all, which requires a lot more work. The difference is 25 cents vs. up to $2 a piece. If your using a gas gun like an M1A or AR then you have to be crazy to use the best brass. The gas gun is going to tear it up whether it's cheap brass or not and you will probably get the same amount of reloads from each.

Gene I also have a 6.5-06 and I have found that cheap nickel plated 25-06 brass once fired then cleaned, preped and sorted produces the best results for 2 or 3 more loads, then it becomes brass for plinking. And I agree only about 25 - 30% of it will be totally consistant. But unless you are strictly shooting bench rest then it's not as critical for shooting steel out to a 1000.

Has anyone played with Meplat trimming of hollow points. I have heard it will tighten groups when shooting considerable distances?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by TonyY

Has anyone played with Meplat trimming of hollow points. I have heard it will tighten groups when shooting considerable distances?

I tried it a long time ago, but never saw the payoff.

I agree, as ragged as they are, especially in the Match Kings, it looks like turning or trimming them all smoothly would help a lot.

TR

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

There is a formula, Greenleaf??? something like that it establish bullet by length, to match the twist. Sence I don't make bullets and Bullets are sold by weights, I select the bullet by weight and then see which one works. A Hornday 225 grain may work better than a Sirocco 225 grain, I think for many of us, it is trial and error. Sence density and length are closely similar.. it is 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other which is getter. Gene, you way ahead on me on bullets, I don't swage. I was thinking of buying a .318 die to make bullets for my 88 Commission. It has always amazed me, how percise a person can get. I watch a guy go through shims, and he could feel the thickness. He would tell me the thickness of the shim pack, then use a caliper. He was 100%.

Hollis and those intrested in trivia of sorts. Here is a decent link for the Greenhill formula. http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July01.htm

I find this formula to be interesting and quite useful when swaging as I have jackets in different lengths and barrels with different twists. Best to use a jacket as close to the right length as possible of a bunch of time and money is wasted. Oh yes, jackets draw some when swaging. Doesn't have to be dead on the money but close.

My advice to guys who want to swge bullets is -- don't bother. You aren't going to make a bullet any more accurate than a commercial bullet and one will spend a huge amount of time tinkering until he finds the right mixture of core alloy, holding pressures, and other techniques. Dies are extremely expensive and for the odd ball calibers it may be impossible to find jackets. I figure if you want to swage lead bullets (no jackets) it is an easier proposition but you will end up using very soft lead and the bullet may lead the bore as a result.

My .02$.

Gene

[HOLLiS]

Gene, The Greenhill formula is just a starting point for some, maybe more important to bullet manufacturers than reloaders. Sort of 6 of one, half dozen of another, in selecting bullets. I have never used it, never had a means to impliment it.

The search, for me, was for the right bullet from the right bullet manufacturer. A 180 grainer is not the same from manufacturers to manufactures. I do cast my own, but have not done it in ages. I keep the makings around, just in case bullets get hard to come by.

Probably for the average shooter it does not matter if it is a 180 gr Sierra or a 180 gr Hornaday. Like in tolerances for machining it is + or - some tolerance, same with shooting. The tighter the tolerance the more time intensive and expensive.

[gunnerjohn]

Hey Gene and Hollis,
I agree with the premise that the Greenhill formula is a good basis to weeding out bullets that will or won't work in a given rifle. I have found this definately true when developing loads for customers rifles that are shipped to me. Most of my customers that I load for are heading overseas to hunt either plains game or dangerous game. Most of the bullets are the higher end.(Barnes, Scirroco, Woodleigh and Norma Oryx) With the Barnes and Scirroco I have found that the extreme length of these bullets will play hell with some rifles. Bullet seating and powder charge have nothing to do with the problem... It is the twist to bullet length ratio that creates the problem. Taking existing good loads out with a new rifle and finding that the bullets dive deep, spin off or go sideways through the target frame causes much frustration. Thanks to these "errors" my test bullet selection is pretty large and allows me to set up developmental test batches to go to the range with. The only time I have issue with excessive range testing on a customer's rifle is when the cost to body damage ratio is too excessive. Remember I mention dangerous game rifles. Big nitro express rifles are neat, beautiful rifles, but the cost of large diameter bullets and lots of powder with excessive recoil makes development interesting. Barnes triple shock bullets have been a dream to the plains hunter. The velocities that one can attain with these bullets with the accuracy make them a great choice for anyone wanting a long range hunting rifle they can rely on. They do like a longer twist barrel because of the length of the all copper bullet. Barnes' new MRX bullet should give the fast twist shooter a chance to use the performance of the triple shock. This bullet will be basically a triple shock bullet with a tungsten core. This allows for the same weight with about 20% shorter OAL.
Barnes is supposed to have their new loading manual out in 2 months and they are addressing the bullet length issue with the greenhill formula involved.

[HOLLiS]

John, We had a Model 70 in 338 Win. A group that I hunted with bought three. We bedded them and set the three up exactly the same. One would only shoot the 215gr Sirrocco. It was re-bedded and different loads and bullets were tried but it was still 215 Gr only rifle. Eventually I recrowned the rifle, I inset the crown. That seem to fix the problem.

Our goal was sub minute at 100 M and milk jugs at 600M consistantly. I know for a bench shooter a Milk jug would be, "what the heck?". But for hunting that is sufficient, I would think. As was mentioned early depending on the shooting and type of accuracy desired one can address those issue in reloading.

I choose my relaoding operation to the shooting that I am doing. Most is just good old plinking. I am re-thinking how to set up a bettet shooting area on my property. Like you if I want to develope a highly accurate round, I need to drive to Albany (about 45 minutes one way from me).

Maybe you can comment more on developing rounds for a specific firearm. There are some good books like, "The accurate rifle". It may be a little out of date.

H.

[gunnerjohn]

Hollis,
Funny you should mention the .338. This is one of my favorite hunting rifles. When I purchased the rifle, the main purpose of the gun was to take to Namibia last summer. With one year to get ready it was time to develop the load that I would use there. The rifle is a Remington 700 SS BDL that I have taken the luxury to modify to my needs. A Gentry quiet brake was the first add on. I wanted to have the quickest possible second shot and keeping the magnum down was needed. I ordered a H.S. Precision stock in three color desert with the longer grip and detachable magazine floorplate system. As with all H.S. products the stock and magazine system were top notch. The trigger was typical remington... built for liability policies. I revamped the trigger to a polite crisp hunting trigger. Normally I would have purchased a blued rifle, but the price of this rifle was too good to ignore and I had a solution. I do coatings with KG Guncoat and have the capacity to cook full length barreled actions, so I matched the metal to the pattern on the stock. After putting a Leupold 4.5-14 Longrange VX-III I matched it up with a back-up Leupold 3-9 compact.(You never know what is going to happen on a hunt of a lifetime and backups are needed)
Load development took about 2 months to find the sweet spot load for the rifle. I am a bit biased to Remingtons and have found them very accurate rifles with the stock barrel. These barrels may not cut it for match shooting but hunting accuracy can be achieved. I knew that I would be using the Barnes 225gr Triple Shock bullet for all of my game taking so the 5 shot string loads began. I used mainly federal brass for all the developing loads because I had a customer that shot factory federal premium only and never reloaded. After full length sizing, trimming length where needed, trimming flash holes and uniforming primer pockets, I started pouring powders into cases. Bullet seating of triple shocks generally works between .020" and .050" from the lands and grooves. Some rifles will not allow this due to magazine length so one would have to load to fit the box and deal with it. I headed to the range with 200 rounds of ammunition in 5 shot increments to determine what would work and what would not. You are reading this and asking yourself 200 rounds of 338 magnum...are you nuts. Ask my friends and they will explain my dedication to a project no matter what the pain may be.
At the range the shoot five, clean cool and analyze began. I found that the closer to the lands the bullet was worked better and that the hotter the loads bacame, the better the accuracy was. I finally settled on 2850fps out of the rifle. Oh... every shot of the 200 was shot though a chronograph to see what the consistency of velocity was. The final load was 72 grains of IMR 4350 with a Fed 215 Match primer with the bullet set .015 from the lands. I use the RCBS digital powder measure and scale and completely trust this system. The standard deviation of this load was 2.5 fps so I am happy with the set up. This load would consistently group five shots at .70" ctc at 100 yards and 1.1" at 200 yards. For a magnum hunting rifle shooting Barnes bullets this is great.
When I used the rifle in Namibia on plains game I killed 7 game animals in 7 days at distances from 60 to 360 yards. All of these animals never went more than 4 feet after being shot. I was able to recover a few of the Barnes triple shocks and found that I had 96-97% bullet weight retention with the "X" completely opened.
I hope this is what you were looking for in a load development write up. If you have any questions about working with big magnums and all copper bullets, feel free to ask.
John

[HOLLiS]

Gunnerjohn,
I think for some folks developing loads can be a lot of fun, for others... too slow of process. (hoping My memory is working) Ken Walters's Favorite Loads, a good book to start out with loads. It is a little old, but still a goody.

One trick I use is to use "magic markers" and put a swipe across the base of the case to identify the load.

For cowboy shooting I use black over the primer for black powder. Same for Black powder shotgun loads.

If I was going to try out four loads, I would use red, blue, black and nothing to denote the four loads. On my reloading log I would mark the color near the notation on the load. It seems to help me keeping things streight.

I use a reloading log to keep note of my loads along with placing a post-it note in the ammo box with the load written on it and date.
it helps if you have different loads in the same caliber. Example;45 colt, I can Blackpowder, and reduced blackpowder, reduce load of cowboy shooting, and a Hot load for hunting.

I have two reloading logs, one for developing loads with more info (I don't use much any more) and a Simple list on a spiral note pad, with date, caliber, powder, powder charge and bullet weight. I use that mostly for plinking loads.

[SpartanWrestler]

I was wondering if anyone shoots Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clay, etc. and reloaded. I have a Remington 870 Express Magnum (jet black) and I love to shoot 1250 ft/sec at 16yds and 1300 ft/sec 20yds and back (Winchester AA).

The bottom line is: what is the best brand of reloaders that won't mess up my primer or oz. load???...i shoot around a flat (8 boxes) in 1_1/2 weeks. and i dont wanna spend to much but still lock 'n' load when i can.

[i heard reloading is a good time killer :-)]

~Ben~

ps: i'm just after random brands.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by SpartanWrestler

I was wondering if anyone shoots Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clay, etc. and reloaded. I have a Remington 870 Express Magnum (jet black) and I love to shoot 1250 ft/sec at 16yds and 1300 ft/sec 20yds and back (Winchester AA). The bottom line is: what is the best brand of reloaders that won't mess up my primer or oz. load???...i shoot around a flat (8 boxes) in 1_1/2 weeks. and i dont wanna spend to much but still lock 'n' load when i can.
[i heard reloading is a good time killer :-)] Ben~ps: i'm just after random brands.

Ben:

Take a look at 'MEC' for shotgun loading. They are kind of the Dillon of shotgun loading devices and have presses at various costs depending on how much you shoot a month. Based on your ammunition expenditure per week, probably some sort of mid line MEC progressive press.

Yes, reloading is a good time killer. Boring as hell and stupefying most of the time. I must load about two hundred rounds of long range rifle ammo tomorrow and although I have the most automated of systems available to guys today, it will render me unable to remember my own name -- so absolutely boring the whole affair is.

I wish I could program into a system my load desires, press a button, and see a couple hundred rounds loaded in an hour.

BTW -- if you think load development for rifle or pistol is time consuming, try load development for shotgun.

I would rather buy cases of WW-AA or Blue Magic for Trap Shooting than to have to go through load development and load for the same. Ahhhh, the sound of a load of shot spilling onto a hard wood floor!

Gene

[HOLLiS]

Gene, gave you some good advice. Auto primer feed is a real pls. I have several Shotgun presses. Posseness Warren(SP) is one it is a great press(no auto primer feed), for 20 and 12 guage. I have mec for 410 and 10 guage and a old press for 16 guage.

The dillion are sure nice to read about. I just don't shoot that much shot gun.