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Old 11-20-2015, 21:00   #16
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Originally Posted by DocIllinois View Post
This article has a distinct absence of any reference to evidence that far exceeds, in quality and quantity, that which has formed a powerful consensus on this subject.

At this point, for anyone to convince the world that anthropogenic climate change isn't happening, false equivalence fallacies and whining about conspiracies don't cut it.
I believe that all of the above were refuted by Team Sergeant's post #1.

What I posted was a link to another's observation of what I've observed developing over the last 3 to 4 decades. Have you lived the 6 decades that I have and observed the manipulation of information and education that I have?

From Eisenhower's final address to the nation, he is often quoted, by lefties, about the "Military Industrial Complex" paragraph. The following paragraph was about the "Education Governmental Complex" which is NEVER quoted. I wonder why?

Pat
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Old 11-20-2015, 23:22   #17
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Originally Posted by DocIllinois View Post
Which was refuted by the very first line of my first post.



This is a version of an ad hominem fallacy known as the Shill Gambit. Its the same used by those attempting to discredit scientists who find GMOs safe, for instance, by claiming the scientist is manipulated by a corporation or government agency.
Well, hell. Now you've pissed me off, so I'm not going to tell you about when I worked for an airline that flew around spraying chemtrails across the continent. Your loss.

Pat
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Old 11-21-2015, 00:12   #18
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Yes, challenging any scientific consensus is a gigantic pain in the ass that involves tremendous amounts of criticism heaped upon those who deny scientific facts, and it should be.

Research is still being produced which provides contradiction to the consensus on the issue. What ground do you imagine the team of scientists enlisted by the TPPF are standing on? One day the conclusions that research is making on the subject might constitute the majority opinion; as it stands now, though, it doesn't even come close.
1. Most of the "facts" presented by the AGW cult are actually model and simulation output, not facts; there is a difference. The actual facts are observed raw data, prior to adjustments made for things people assume alter or skew the datasets.

2. Truth isn't necessarily found in majority opinion or consensus, and scientists shoudn't be criticized and have to endure tremendous amounts of ass pain simply because they question the majority opinion. Scientific progress is based on questioning assumptions and challenging models that don't work with 100% accuracy. Within the atmospheric science community there is an open hostility toward anyone questioning "the consensus", and this affects funding. The scientists enlisted by the TPPF are probably being funded by the TPPF rather than the typical public university grant structure that is far easier to get research funds through (as long as your an AGW advocate).

3. The AGW debate morphed into the realm of emotions, credibility, and politics. That is not good science, it is mob theatrics.
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Old 11-21-2015, 00:14   #19
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The links between the anti-White supremacist-Capitalistic-Heteronormative groups protesting on campuses today and the Climate Change social hysteria types should give one pause.

The President referenced the DoD in his state of the union on climate change. Love that- since he ordered us to identify it as a national security threat!!! (just like sexual harassment...)

The models these guys are running are... models. And models are all wrong. Some are more wrong than others. These are really, really wrong...

A relative of mine is in the "environmental policy" circles. It is a faith-based effort...
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:12   #20
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Originally Posted by DocIllinois View Post
Which was refuted by the very first line of my first post.



This is a version of an ad hominem fallacy known as the Shill Gambit. Its the same used by those attempting to discredit scientists who find GMOs safe, for instance, by claiming the scientist is manipulated by a corporation or government agency.
So, tree potato is an Atmospheric scientist and, if you're profile is accurate, you are an.....11A. Who's opinion should hold more weight?

Hmmmm.....
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Old 11-21-2015, 07:44   #21
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So, tree potato is an Atmospheric scientist and, if you're profile is accurate, you are an.....11A. Who's opinion should hold more weight?

Hmmmm.....
If he goes SF he'll make a great general officer: never question conventional wisdom, attack those who do, and assume you know everything outside of your expertise. Sounds just like every one of them I've met...
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:05   #22
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I am afraid that this won't be the last thread on Climate Change. I have a strong story to tell about the financial aspects of the UNFCCC and how it is a financial scam, regardless of whether the planet is warming or not. I worked in the field for a number of years as a Director of the London based company that at one time was dealing over a third of the worlds volume of CER futures and options. We were doing quite well until the latest banking crisis hammered the industries we dealt with forcing down the price of CERs to uneconomic levels. Carbon trading died a tidy death and has still not recovered. The UNFCCC edifice is built on a totally artificial set of rules and regulations which are designed to benefit first world nations only. Third World nations, who are supposed to be the ones who are most likely to suffer from global warming, were financially raped by the first world and are now left with the option of imposing Carbon Taxes on their own industries so that the rape can continue unabated, but this time, greedy Third World governments can begin to feed on the Global Warming monster.
Because the UNFCCC scheme is very complex, the entire scam is quite difficult to explain to people who are not intimately involved in the scheme. That is why it has taken some time for me to write a clear and easily digested explanation of the scam. That piece will perhaps be the final and last thread on Climate Change we will see on this site. Be patient.
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:30   #23
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I am afraid that this won't be the last thread on Climate Change. I have a strong story to tell about the financial aspects of the UNFCCC and how it is a financial scam, regardless of whether the planet is warming or not. I worked in the field for a number of years as a Director of the London based company that at one time was dealing over a third of the worlds volume of CER futures and options. We were doing quite well until the latest banking crisis hammered the industries we dealt with forcing down the price of CERs to uneconomic levels. Carbon trading died a tidy death and has still not recovered. The UNFCCC edifice is built on a totally artificial set of rules and regulations which are designed to benefit first world nations only. Third World nations, who are supposed to be the ones who are most likely to suffer from global warming, were financially raped by the first world and are now left with the option of imposing Carbon Taxes on their own industries so that the rape can continue unabated, but this time, greedy Third World governments can begin to feed on the Global Warming monster.
Because the UNFCCC scheme is very complex, the entire scam is quite difficult to explain to people who are not intimately involved in the scheme. That is why it has taken some time for me to write a clear and easily digested explanation of the scam. That piece will perhaps be the final and last thread on Climate Change we will see on this site. Be patient.
We can always talk about corruption. And that is what climate change is all about.
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:43   #24
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I imagine that this is related: CA has banned WD 40 by the end of 2016. Coming to a state near you.

How do you like those CARB fuel can nozzles?

Pat
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:33   #25
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I imagine that this is related: CA has banned WD 40 by the end of 2016. Coming to a state near you.

How do you like those CARB fuel can nozzles?

Pat
WD40? Fish oil?
lol

(urban legend)
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Old 11-21-2015, 15:53   #26
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Sometimes, you wade through the oppositions playbook for insight into thier agenda. In the book review below - discussing climate change - appearing on the World Socialist Web Site - the review itself and many of the comments essentially complain that this progressive author argues for reformed capitalism instead of socialism vis-a-via the climate change discussion. Complete review at link below.

"The book’s title implicitly argues that capitalism is fundamentally in conflict with the earth’s climate. However, Klein goes out of her way to make clear that her goal is simply to reform capitalism, not to overthrow it."

Awww, merely reforming capitalism and not overthrowing it in the name of climate change - is just not good enough for these folks.

Don't be duped. The left have co-opted the climate change issue in their fight to fundamentally transform our nation.

World Socialist Web Site
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201.../klei-m04.html

Pro-capitalist “anti-capitalism”

A review of This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. the Climate, by Naomi Klein
By Evan Winters
4 May 2015

Naomi Klein’s new book, This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. the Climate, has been met with widespread acclaim among individuals and organizations associated with the environmental movement. The book’s release coincided with the September 21, 2014 “People’s Climate March” in New York City. The release was announced at a telecast event at which speakers from environmental and indigenous activist groups, such as 350.org and Idle No More, joined trade union officials to hail the book as a manifesto for climate-related protest politics. A companion film of the same name is scheduled for release in the fall of 2015.

In the book’s introduction, Klein notes that, according to the World Bank, “we’re on track for a 4░C warmer world.” This estimate is primarily based on current and projected levels of greenhouse gas emissions, which trap heat in Earth’s atmosphere.

She explains that, according to the best available science, “Four degrees of warming could raise global sea levels by 1 or possibly even 2 meters (3.3-6.6 feet) by 2100… Major cities in jeopardy include Boston, New York, greater Los Angeles, Vancouver, London, Mumbai, Hong Kong and Shanghai.” [P. 13]

She adds, “The heat would also cause staple crops to suffer dramatic yield losses across the globe… When you add ruinous hurricanes, raging wildfires, fisheries collapses, widespread disruptions of water supplies, extinctions and globe-trotting diseases to the mix, it indeed becomes difficult to imagine that a peaceful ordered society could be maintained.” [P. 14]

“[W]e have not done the things that are necessary to lower emissions because those things fundamentally conflict with deregulated capitalism.” [P. 18]

To effectively and equitably deal with the climate crisis, Klein calls for increased levels of renewable electricity, supported by “vast new electricity grids.” [P. 90]

In addition, society ought “to invest in starving public infrastructure like mass transit and affordable housing; to take back ownership of essential services like energy and water; to remake our sick agricultural system into something healthier; to open borders to migrants whose displacement is linked to climate impacts.” [P. 7]

At present, however, the governments of wealthier nations instead “will build ever more high-tech fortresses and adopt even more draconian anti-immigration laws. And, in the name of ‘national security,’ we will intervene in foreign conflicts over water, oil and arable land, or start those conflicts ourselves. In short, our culture will do what it is already doing, only with more brutality and barbarism, because that is what our system is meant to do.” [P. 49]

The book’s title implicitly argues that capitalism is fundamentally in conflict with the earth’s climate. However, Klein goes out of her way to make clear that her goal is simply to reform capitalism, not to overthrow it.

When the word “capitalism” appears in her book, it is invariably preceded by “neo-liberal,” or “deregulated” or “predatory.” On the page before the table of contents, Klein quotes science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson, who argues that the task ahead is “comprehensively changing capitalism.”

What, then, does Klein mean by “capitalism,” and how would she like to see it changed? In an MSNBC interview, she asserts that, “capitalism as usual is an economic system based on short-term profits and growth.”

Klein argues the goal must be to create a version of capitalism in which “Low-carbon sectors of our economy can be encouraged to expand… while high-carbon sectors are encouraged to contract.” [P. 21]

Such a program would be achieved on the basis of national protectionism, ending free trade agreements, and encouraging “buy local” schemes. It will also apparently require a reduction of living standards for the working class in advanced industrial countries, perhaps through a shorter work week with correspondingly lower wages. [P. 94]

In the same interview, Klein is asked what she would like to replace capitalism with. Her response is: “A system that can say no to corporations, that you can’t dig up five times more carbon than our atmosphere can safely absorb... Maybe even that you [fossil fuel companies] should help pay for us to transition away from fossil fuels.”

In other words, Klein is calling for a return to some sort of regulated capitalist economy. Along these lines, she makes numerous references to the New Deal and the Marshall Plan, programs that introduced various social reforms and government investment in infrastructure.

This is essentially the same argument she made in her popular 2007 book The Shock Doctrine. This journalistic exposÚ documents the way moneyed interests take advantage of crises to push through predatory agendas that would otherwise be politically impossible. The book, which was translated into 25 languages, made the New York Times bestseller list and topped similar lists in several other countries.

To achieve these ends, Klein calls for a diverse group of loosely affiliated organizations to undertake various forms of political “resistance.” Quoting Brad Werner, a complex systems researcher at University of California, San Diego, Klein writes: ‘“[T]his includes ‘environmental direct action, resistance taken from outside the dominant culture, as in protests, blockades and sabotage by Indigenous groups, workers, anarchists, and other activist groups.’” [P. 450]

She calls on the courts to prevent fossil fuel extraction and transport by enforcing indigenous treaty rights. She writes: “If court challenges like Beaver Lake’s can succeed in halting tar sands expansion, they could very well be the best chance for the rest of us to continue enjoying a climate that is hospitable to human life.” [P. 379]

She supports civil disobedience campaigns surrounding the Keystone XL oil pipeline and other fossil fuel infrastructure projects, which aim to pressure the Obama administration and other politicians. She promotes fossil fuel divestment campaigns at universities, banks and other investing institutions.

Building off her conception of The Shock Doctrine, Klein calls for a “people’s shock” in response to the threats posed by climate change: “Given these factors… another crisis will see us in the streets and squares once again... The real question is what progressive forces will make of that moment, the power and confidence with which it will be seized.” [P. 466]

In other words, she calls for “progressive” political figures to utilize major social crises to gain access to the halls of state power to carry out a shift in environmental and social policies. What would it look like if the forces Klein promotes were to come to power? Fortunately, we can answer this question by looking to Greece.

Klein extensively quotes her interviews with Alexis Tsipras, leader of the Syriza party in Greece, which she calls “one of the few sources of hope in Europe.” [P. 466]

In the months since her book’s publication, Syriza has taken power in Greece, quickly abandoning all its campaign promises. It is now implementing a program of brutal austerity. Yanis Varoufakis, Syriza’s lead bargainer in negotiations with Greece’s creditors, openly states, much like Klein, that his goal is to save capitalism from itself.

Klein is a skilled journalist. Her exposures of the hypocrisy of major environmental NGOs and green-sounding billionaires should dispel any illusions that such forces can address climate change. Her consultations with leading scientists shine through in many places, especially her discussion of the effects of environmental disturbances on developing life.

She clearly and convincingly communicates that the current economic system is on track to unfathomable environmental devastation, and requires a massive overhaul.

Her political conceptions are often amorphous, and one gets the distinct sense that many have not been carefully thought through. However, she expresses clearly the interests of a privileged layer of the upper-middle class.

These layers, embodied in the social elements present at Klein’s book release, long ago gave up on the working class as an agent of revolutionary change. They are terrified by the apparently imminent collapse of capitalist society and its revolutionary implications. Their aim is to stabilize capitalism and block the development of an independent movement of the working class, the only social force capable of rationally responding to climate change.


...the climate change discussion for the left...is the precious...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz-8CSa9xj8


ETA: I agree with this IMO insightful observation made earlier by Tree Potato:

"A century from now scientists will look back on this period of time and use it as a case study of how political activism can contaminate basic scientific methods."
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Last edited by tonyz; 11-21-2015 at 16:14.
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Old 11-21-2015, 18:39   #27
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WD40? Fish oil?
lol

(urban legend)
Smells better! I use it as a deodorant and antiperspirant.

Pat
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Old 11-21-2015, 19:47   #28
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CO2 = plant food.
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Calling Mr. Pot, Mr. Pol Pot - cleanup in central North America...
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Old 11-21-2015, 19:47   #29
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I imagine that this is related: CA has banned WD 40 by the end of 2016. Coming to a state near you.

How do you like those CARB fuel can nozzles?

Pat
I always thought WD 33 thru 39 were better products, and better for the environment. They should bring back WD 39.
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Old 11-21-2015, 20:22   #30
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CO2 = plant food.
So that means ... we're ALL breathing in plant flatulence !!!!
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