Mountain course

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Hard to believe as a SF guy Steve, you'd be "nasty" to Captain Muckity muck.

i know...it is soooooooo against my COO side...

beyond that, i am rather curious to know what standards have been applied to military mountaineering...when i was a detachment commander, we got guys based on our MOS or language needs...if the guy couldn't ski, had never climbed, etc, we were responsible for OJT at detachment level...has a system evolved that tracks people with mountain training (we implemented the standards i mentioned earlier in an effort to do so) so that the personnel weenies can match skills to needs?

[12B4S]

Looks to me Steve, like you implemented a great base for standards. Would be interesting to know what was happening now.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Looks to me Steve, like you implemented a great base for standards. Would be interesting to know what was happening now.

anything implemented was done by NCOs, not by the likes of me...

[Razor]

Well, I can tell you that when I showed up to my mountain team in '97, we had two officially rated climbers (my Warrant attended a climbing course-not Bergfuehrer-while with 1/10, and my 18D graduated from the USASOC Mountain Leader Course), my senior E and C had OJT skills from being on the team several years and doing an assault climbing JCET in Turkey, and I had attended the summer phase of the VTANG Mountain Warfare Course at CEATS as a cadet. So, that means only 5 out of the 9 guys on the team had any mountaineeringg experience, and we had no slots available within the next year to the USASOC course that our own Group was running. I hope things have changed some since, but at that time, there was little emphasis on getting mountaineers on mountain teams, except for the two ODAs that served as cadre for the USASOC course, who also got any incoming Bergfuehrers and maintained the climbing locker.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Razor

So, that means only 5 out of the 9 guys on the team had any mountaineeringg experience

that was the problem from 80-83 as well...we were assigned guys that had never seen snow before, much less knew how to ski...we actually got guys who had been on other teams and had an interest in skiing and climbing (although this tended to create some hate and discontent unless there was a reenlistment involved)... even had a guy who unbeknownst to us (or to him) was hypoxic...he was a great soldier, very physically fit, but coulc not function at 11,000 above sea level...we worked at fitting skills to detachments, but except for the HALO and SCUBA teams, language and MOS requirements drove the boat in assigning people to teams...

[QRQ 30]

Yes indeed. In 1976 our B-Team (company) in the 7th made a cross country trek across the frozen tundra somewhere north of Fairbanks. Unlike the purty films, the tundra was nothing but a sea of frozen clumps of grass. There was a name for it but CRS. Anyway we pulled, pushed, carried, cursed and kicked those damned akios across over 200 KM in minus 40 degree weather. For the most part we were stripped to T-shirts and parka shell to keep from getting overheated.

The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight.

the northern lights are most spectacular when you have to answer a prolonged call of nature at -40°F, if you know what i mean...

[12B4S]

Originally Posted by lksteve

anything implemented was done by NCOs, not by the likes of me...

HM!?!! Steve, you graduated from Alpini school for one. Second: I believe you had alot to do with setting up the standards/expectations for a mountain ODA. I realize the NCO's had a ton to do with the implemtation. BUT, in your first post here, you referred to "we" quite often. During my short time in SF (compared to the rest of the QPs out here) I was fortunate enough to be commanded and knew some great Officers. However, I did run into my share of that "10%". The ones trying to punch thier ticket (although to my thinking, there weren't many of them back then, SF was pretty much death on "The Career" for an Ossifer). You Sir, are more like a senior NCO or Team Daddy.

Was up in your AO a few years ago. If I can get back that way, I'll teach you the Snowplow.

What's interesting, is the span of decades on this thread. What you and your NCO's were trying to do in the early 80's is similar to what Razor went through some 14 to 17 years later. Then ya have Terry and I. QRQ 30 was in Tolz approx. a decade before I got there (early 60's). Between the four us we span some 40+ years!!

Our mountain training was all OJT. Your's and Razor's transcended ours. Thing is between the two of you and the 15 to 17 years difference or so, seems the technical aspects of mountain training got better ( the physical is a given). Yet after reading Razor's post, it seems like the same old. In other words, you take what/who is assigned to the Team and train 'em in whatever. I've been out a long time, but that is how it was when I was in. Hell, if they got that far, they'll pull it off. Or die!

[12B4S]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

Yes indeed. In 1976 our B-Team (company) in the 7th made a cross country trek across the frozen tundra somewhere north of Fairbanks. Unlike the purty films, the tundra was nothing but a sea of frozen clumps of grass. There was a name for it but CRS. Anyway we pulled, pushed, carried, cursed and kicked those damned akios across over 200 KM in minus 40 degree weather. For the most part we were stripped to T-shirts and parka shell to keep from getting overheated.

The first night we learned to drink nothing near bed time. Getting up and dressed to pee was a tortuous operation. OTOH there was nothing like moonoing a moose in the arctic twilight.

See luvanwilder! Terry loved "The Beast Too" (akio)
Almost as much as I did. He's right about not drinking close to rack/hammock time. It is a bi@*h, having to get up and take a leak when it's below zero. If the wind isn't blowing, it's tolerable. If the wind chill cranks the temp to 70 below, it's kinda miserable. Good thing we didn't want to add a case of beer to our already 100+ LB rucks. I did try takin' a leak while in the hammock and once while sleeping on the snow pack. Just never worked out. You HAVE to extract yourself from that little bit of warmth and "just do it". (Hope Nike doesn't come after me for that). One has bedmates in a mummy bag, your weapon, boots and canteen, for starters. Gets a tad crowded.

[luvanwilder]

I know just what you gents are talking about with the struggle to hold it or freeze. We actually had two young studs that decided to get up in the middle of the night, go pee, and then go back to bed one night. The only problem is that they wore only their ski boot liners and then left them on when they got back in the fart sack!! I couldnt believe it when they came limping back into the lodge and told the story of why their feet were cold. Luckily neither one of them got frostbite, but they were damn close. Needless to say the doc was not happy with those guys and they got an ear full from all the senior NCOs out there. I found that a nalgene bottle with a little glint tape on the top so you can make sure you arent gonna drink from your pee bottle or pee in your water bottle worked pretty good for me.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

You Sir, are more like a senior NCO or Team Daddy.

Was up in your AO a few years ago. If I can get back that way, I'll teach you the Snowplow.

those are kind words...the bottom line is this...having been an NCO on a detachment before OCS, i knew that any lasting change had to come from those ranks...when i was a detachment commander, i was an infantry officer, killing his career (gladly)...the NCOs were and are the institutional memory of any unit and are in the best position to see change through....

the role(s) of officers in SF in the late 70s and early 80s, in my opinion, were to bring both the potential of and the problems within SF...i think we did okay...the conventional officers who ran the Army back then needed a way to tie the shortages we faced in SF to a conventional framework, to a conventional reference...Colonel Roger Seymour, when he commanded 1/10, developed a document called the Cutting Edge report...he submitted that report along with the monthly USR...a USR (Unit Status Report) tracked equipment and personnel necessary for a unit ot accomplish its wartime mission...we filed the report stating that all four PRC 74s were functional, all twelve rifles were in tip-top shape, the team had at least guy per MOS and that both cameras had film...when the folks at SOTFE and SFD(A)E complained about personnel 'shortages' the generals would wave the USR about and talk about 2/15 IN being short two TOW gunners or something...what the Cutting Edge report did was highlight SF peculiar requirements that did not fit the broad categories of the rest of the Army...it included language ratings, mountaineering skills, area orientation and scout swim training....the personnel requirements were written into the warplans and all of the sudden the G3/J3 folks are USAREUR and EUCOM could see that even though A1369 had eleven people assigned, they only had two jumpmasters...although they had nine linguists, they were oriented toward eastern Europe, so the Korean, Spanish and Farsi linguists weren't much help...folks like that had a big impact, IMNSHO, on the current requirements of the pipeline rather than 1LTs who filled out the report as det XOs...my contribution, if any, was putting my Bergfuhrers in front of the battalion, Det Europe and SOTFE commanders to emphasize the potential capability...i helped a little with the grammar, too...

[12B4S]

There ya go Steve. I just knew you were oozing NCO.
As an officer on a Team, you have to deal with all that crap, trying to deal with the needed equipment/personnel and such. As the saying goes (as an E5 at the time) it was above my pay grade. When I was assigned to A-12, they were just being formed. There was one 12B/18C, a SSG, but he was short and acting Team Sergeant. Myself and another 12B (who I went through TG with) were assigned to A-12, filling out the team. If somewhere along the line in the tons of forms I filled out, I mentioned that I had been scuba diving for 8 years or skiing for 5 or so, I don't remember. Then again, neither were Military schools. So how it came to be, as to my assignment to that team, I have NO idea. Except for my MOS, yet with another guy, that was just as new as I was. Somehow, I was designated the senior 12B. Still don't how that happened. Plus at the time, he an I bunked together in the Kaserne. It was fine with him though. Yeah, for me it was WTF?!? But then, it was cool. Hell, I was on an A Team and besides, the three of us new guys (myself, the other 12B and our Capt.), we had 37 plus years combat experience, until we were assigned our new Team Daddy. That put the Team's combat experience, at 40 plus years, between 9 out of the 12 of us. My first meeting with 'Doc" (new Team Sergeant) is another story. For two years, I served on that Team as the senior 12B. WHAT were they thinkin'?...

Good to hear Steve that you would correct the NCO's umm..... "grammar" Did you tell them? Also, as you mention. You put your Bergfuhrers up front!! A good Officer will!
I don't quite get the two Jumpmaster/ linquist part. All A Teams have folks that can speak other languages. What I get from that statement is this, the regular Army chose to dissect A1369's personnel needs. Of course as back in my day they had no clue what SF was about and pissed they still existed. Too much to type here. Anyway, ah never mind, I'll stop now.

[12B4S]

Originally Posted by luvanwilder

I know just what you gents are talking about with the struggle to hold it or freeze. We actually had two young studs that decided to get up in the middle of the night, go pee, and then go back to bed one night. The only problem is that they wore only their ski boot liners and then left them on when they got back in the fart sack!! I couldnt believe it when they came limping back into the lodge and told the story of why their feet were cold. Luckily neither one of them got frostbite, but they were damn close. Needless to say the doc was not happy with those guys and they got an ear full from all the senior NCOs out there. I found that a nalgene bottle with a little glint tape on the top so you can make sure you arent gonna drink from your pee bottle or pee in your water bottle worked pretty good for me.

When i was in, we didn't have the nalgene bottles (bought several after i got out though). Good idea, they have a wide opening. (Behave, Y'all!, already went there, just didn't type it). Bein' a fog, there are ways. best is not having too.
luvanwilder, now you made me dredge something up from decades ago, as seems to happen alot since I got to this site. Once read a story or it was a movie, 20-30 years ago, think it was about a con/sting/bet thing. Not sure. Anyway the guy in the story, in order to get/win what he was after, used something from the 1800/1900s. I can't remember the exact terminology. It was called something like a "cabooseman's friend". At any rate, what this was used for back then, was this. A small cannister (almost flask like) was strapped just above and inside the ankle. a smallish diameter hose/tube ran up the leg, to the crotch. At the ah...... 'business end', was a .... hmmm (how to put this) sort of a condom configuration. Anyway, these guys all used them for the long rides they made. They relieved themselves in these during the trip. I know, I know! I have no idea why they didn't just walk out back an go either, after all, they are in the caboose. I'll Google tommorow.

[The Reaper]

12B4S, I have heard that device called a Texas Catheter.

Supposedly comes in handy for truckers and poker players.

TR

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

I don't quite get the two Jumpmaster/ linquist part. All A Teams have folks that can speak other languages. What I get from that statement is this, the regular Army chose to dissect A1369's personnel needs. Of course as back in my day they had no clue what SF was about and pissed they still existed. Too much to type here. Anyway, ah never mind, I'll stop now.

a team oriented toward, say Iraq might have nine linguists...two Arabic linguists, two Spanish linguists, three German linguists and two Vietnamese linguists....the war plan might call for four Arabic linguists, two Farsi linguists, etc...while all the guys might be linguists, the languages don't fit the AOR...not always a problem, but always a consideration...

because we had four radios, someone wrote each detachment should have four jumpmasters into our planning documents...having only two jumpmasters meant team wasn't fully mission capable...

the standard unit reporting methods didn't work well for SF in 1980, so a battalion commander sought to provide more meaningful imput...it seems toward the end, we started getting a response...the tradeoff was end strength in the short term versus improved capability in the long term...the personnel folks at USAREUR worried about teams going down to eight or nine people, not realizing that twelve guys, while great, were no more effective than eight if they weren't fully qualified to work in the AOR...

the pipeline for this generation of SF is so long, (or so it seems to one who spent 17 weeks in training group) is to address some of the problems we had back in the post Vietnam era...we got guy who were fluent in Spanish, Korean, Farsi, but damned if we could get anyone qualified in Polish, Czech, Magyar, etc...