Mountain course

[Max_Tab]

I would appreciate any help. I am trying to find the standards for level 2 and level 3 mountaineering. It has been a few years since I was on a mountain team and none of my books have the information. Plus the mountain locker has been temporarily disbanded, so I do not have anyone that I could call there.

Thanks

[NousDefionsDoc]

Call Ron Johnson, apparently he invented it.

[12B4S]

Originally Posted by Max_Tab

I would appreciate any help. I am trying to find the standards for level 2 and level 3 mountaineering. It has been a few years since I was on a mountain team and none of my books have the information. Plus the mountain locker has been temporarily disbanded, so I do not have anyone that I could call there.

Thanks

Once again, a FOG's reply. I don't know anything about standards and levels for mountaineering courses Max_Tab. When I served with the 10th in Toelz, Our Mountain training was more like OJT. Here's what we were doing. Happened in Bavaria, Austria and Switzerland. At any time of the year. One of the last I was on,was in Switzerland. Our rucks, gear and Akios were lifted to the end of our uphill (on cross country skis, with the mohair climbing skins, ski race.) This little diabolical exercise had all of us gasping for air. Thing was, when we got to the top of that frickin' mountain, (a 30 to 40 minute race uphill on skis) a front had moved in. We were in t-shirts and they were soaked in sweat. This front was quick, screaming wind and COLD!!! Hit fast, our wet t-Shirts froze in minutes. Was kind of funny, beating on the icy t-shirt to bust up the ice so you could remove it and find your ruck in the pile and find something dry, unfrozen to put on. That was chilly stuff. IMHO, GOOD training! This was just the beginning of an eight day trek through the mountains, using nothing but map and compass, breaking and making our own trail, using ropes and manpower to haul those damn akios up a steep slope. Taking turns breaking trail on skis, humping 120/130 lb rucks. For those that don't know about mountain snow at those elevations.... fall and you are buried........... step off your skis, before tamping.... you will be up to at least your crotch, more likely your chest in snow. Anyway, we didn't have a name for the training/exercises........... it just was. Oh, BTW. Akios for those of you that havn't seen one........ are like wide, white smallish row boats with ribs on the bottom and the gunnels (sides) sliced down to 6 to 8 inches high. sled like. They were like trying to haul a duece and and half uphill!

[luvanwilder]

12B, You might be amused to know that us young pups in 1-10 are still doing the frozen high altitude fun dance while trying to get dry stuff on that you described. While im only a support guy I was with the OPFOR for our recent CWT and learned all about sinking in the snow up to your chest and such. Also we rescued an old Akio from the turn in pile to take with us because we support dudes have no sleds. While we didnt do anything as extreme as what you described, we were hauling many many cases of ammo and other gear in that thing all over the mountain for 2 weeks. So I know what you mean about humping those things uphill. The really fun part about them in my limited experience is when they are overloaded and you ski down a hill with them. If your break man isnt paying attention, or if your brake line snaps then you stop and they keep going, right into your legs and knock you on your butt. Good to know we are still getting some of the experiences you guys got, and I hope an amusing mental picture to those that have gone before.

[12B4S]

I'm thinkin' luvanwilder, perhaps it was unfortunate that you rescued that akio. As huge as a pain as they were/are, we had enough stuff on our backs. BTW, is that old design still in use or has something newer replaced them? Yeah, heavily loaded they can scream downhill just fine as opposed to what seems to be an inch at a time on anything resembling fairly level terrain, let alone up a steep incline. Any of us taking our turn as brakeman, knew we were DEAD men if we screwed that up. But hey, it would take those wiped out by the thing, time to extricate themselves from the bottomless snow, head toward the track of the akio, because, it at least packed the snow. Next, they had to climb up a 30, 45 degree incline or more. That is easily an hour or more, plenty of time to evade and let them "cool" down some.
A quick story. As for "only a support guy", we had a Marine Captain come to Flint to challenge a couple of our A Teams to a mountain march. This was summer. Word came down through a few of the teams, mine was one of them. We just said f**k No! We were always humping them, saw no point in it, just so we could smoke a couple squads of Marines ( no offense Jarheads) Any way, some of our support guys were sent out to do this 'thang'. The support guys kicked ass.
Read your profile, found it interesting that you said you didn't like Germany. I loved it there, the area, the people, all of it. Only reason, I can think of, is that you are in Stuttgart. I was stationed in Toelz. Perhaps some of the other FOG's on here can help elaborate on that, because I need to end this post.
Except for one thing, but I'll post this in an equiptment thread.

Thanks for your service "young pup"

[Peregrino]

Max Tab - PM inbound! Peregrino

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Once again, a FOG's reply. I don't know anything about standards and levels for mountaineering courses Max_Tab. When I served with the 10th in Toelz, Our Mountain training was more like OJT.

let me jump in here....i served in 1/10 at BT from 80-83...i had the privilege of being the XO of A-124 (8) and commanded A-123(5)...BTW, the numbers in parentheses are the original designation of the teams...both detachments were mountain teams, A8/124 being the mountain team in B Company, A5/123 being the mountain team in A Company until reorganization put the mountain teams in B Company and the SCUBA and HALO team in A Company...

a good deal of the training was done OJT, as 12B4S mentions...our formal training was conducted as exchange training with the Germans, Austrians and Italians...when i arrived, we were sending one NCO per year from the mountain detachments to the German Herresbergfuhrer Schule (Military Mountain Guide School)...i was fortunate to work with the first five men to attend that course....

the purpose of sending an NCO to Bergfuhrer School was to develop a cadre to train the remainder of the battalion in CWT and mountain ops...in addition to Bergfuhrer School, the guys on the mountain teams and selected other troops would attend training with at the German Mountain School in Mittenwald, the Austrian Winter Camp and the Italian Alpini course. i was fortunate enough to attend the Austrian course and graduate from Alpini school...

the mountain teams spent a lot of time on the Brauneck, both summer and winter, as the skiing was great and the climbing wasn't bad...we also spent a good deal of time on the Foralberg, Reichlkopf and Blomberg, doing our other SF training...i had a company commander complain about how much time we spent in the mountains...we 'invited' he and the SGM to come train with us...what we would do for commo cross training would be load up our rucks with the radio stuff, split into four three man groups and head up one of the local large hills/small mountains, stop after an hour, have one of the commo-illiterates write and encrypt a message, get the message on tape, set-up the radio, transmit to the base station, break down and we would continue up to the mountain...once every one had done this (BTW, we had 4 PRC74 per team), we would do a tactical rendezvous, with some of the tradecraft training integrated, then we might do IV training or do a target recon, maybe do some calculation and placement training, whatever...for some reason, the CO and SGM thought if a team wasn't doing sit-down classes in the team room, they weren't training...

anyway, this is what we expected of someone on a mountain team...he should be able to lead a UIAA rated 3+ climb with weapon and LCE, negotiate a 3- with full gear...to become a lead climber, he would be expected to lead a 4+ climb in friction shoes and climbing gear...to be considered for Bergfurher School, he'd need to lead climb a 5, 5+...as a skier, he would have to negotiate a reasonable steep slope with rifle and rucksack, using a stem christie, with some ease...to become an instructor, he would have to be able to negotiate the same slope with rucksack using parallel turns...he also had to have mastery of the snowplow and stem christie, so he could teach others...(the snowplow was my downfall...i never learned to do one)...

of course, along with the physical climbing skills, it was necessary that a soldier on a mountain team would have mastery of the knots used, as well as belay and hauling systems...let's face it, climbing is good, but it's hard to kill bad guys with carabiners and pitons, so it is necessary to move crew served weapons and munitions across mountainous terrain...

i bring this up because in 1980-83, mountain teams got whoever was available in whatever MOS was needed...the NCOs who became Bergfuhrers in my time, had a hand in developing the standards for military mountaineers of the present era...one of the Bergfuhrers later became the CSM for the NWTC and i am sure had an impact on developing mountaineering standards for the Army in that capacity...i was initially assigned to the Ranger Department after graduation from IOAC to be the chief of the mountaineering committee, but some genius BG at the Infantry School decided it would be better if i went to IOBC to teach Mech Infantry tactics...c'est le guerre...

Berg Heil...BTW, anyone know where a fellow can get copies of those pen and ink sketches of SF guys skiing, climbing, etc?

[QRQ 30]

I can't help with numbers and scales and degrees and other things which seem to be important today. Like others have mentioned most mountain training was OJT. I did most of my climbing (whilst kicking and screaming) in Germany. Howsever the 7th also ran schools in the summer in Pisgah.

In Germany Bob Daniels (RIP) our team sergeant had graduated from the Italian Alpini School. The Alpini were considered the top mountain troops in the world. The Group decided to conduct formal training and asked Bib to pick a committee. Being a total team member as we all were he said that he would train his team and we would be the committee. That is how it went down. I hated climbing. Someone asked me how I could jump out of planes and be afraid of heights. I replied that you only hit the ground once when you jump but the mountain will beat you to death all of the way down. We conducted most of the basic training at a quarry not far from Lenggries. Some of the most technical and difficult training was conducted at a height of thirty feet or less at the quarry.

We also attended the German school near O'gau. The base camp was reached by helicopter.

Some memorable moments:

Bob was belaying a student as he was traversing a rock. The soldier was half or more goat and never slipped or fell. Bib yanked him off of the face. I asked him why and he said the troop was too cocky and if he didn't ever fall here, under control, he may panic later if he falls and never had to recover.

If you fall the proper call is to say "Falling". SFC Frigo slipped and hollered "Help". Delbert Hayes who was belaying from the top looked over the edge and asked: "What!" No one was hurt so we had a good laugh over that for some time.

Daniels used to say that climbing was 95% confidence and 5% skill. One day I fell and two carribiners came loose and the third held. So much for confidence and clean drawers and pants!!

Here is a picture of the Brauneck which was mentioned above. It was within walking didtance of Prinz Heinrich Kaserne and we, as a team, went there once a week. OOPS I can't get it, if you wish it on my web-site on the 10th SFGA page.

[luvanwilder]

12B,
The big thing that everyone uses now as far as sleds go is the Polk. The teams all have 2 or 3 in various configurations. I’m not too smart on them but I was told that some are designed for deeper powder and have higher sides. In my experience they are a lot easier to pull and control, but due to the large amount of stuff we support dudes haul they probably aren’t suited for our mission. That old Akio, aka the beast has been put back into service until we can find a suitable replacement that the support company can get a hold of. When we tried hauling ammo in the Polks they just wouldn’t stay upright or would sink too deep. I am told that there was more snow for this CWT than anyone could ever remember seeing so I guess we weren’t too prepared for that much powder, but we pushed through. As previously mentioned the host nation mountain troops are outstanding. We had a German mountain troop with us and he was crazy, he literally went off the sheer side of the mountain on skis. Looked back at us, said tschuss, and disappeared. Rode back up the bahn the next day with some jagr tea for everyone. We learned a lot from that dude and I personally got a ton out of CWT.

[12B4S]

Thanks for the input Steve. So much has changed since I was in. Always interesting to learn about those changes. What you were describing was 9 years after I left Toelz. Great training. We didn't know anything about 3-,3+ etc. Matter of fact your post is the first time I've heard them.

Although, all teams at Flint, did some training on skis, my team was the ski team (for lack of a better term), We were also the scout swimmer/small boat team (small boat, referring to the RB15). Quite a combination.

During the winter in Toelz, spent most our time on skis. Cross country in the mountains and the "flats" around Flint and downhill training. I started skiing in HS. Back then (the days of lace up boots, rope tows and t-bars) I taught myself, couldn't afford lessons. Anyway, the way I would have been taught in a ski class, would have started with the snowplow, stem christie, christie, then to parallel. This is how I taught myself. This was in WI, which means I mostly skiied ICE. Got to Toelz, started training and had to adapt to actually skiing on snow. We'd go out for downhill training once a week or so, but we could always, on our time off go to S3, I believe it was and get free lift tickets. We used the same skiis, for cross country and downhill. Doing downhill with loaded rucks was an interesting experience. The trick was to lean FORWARD, more so for parallel. The brain is telling you... "don't go there idiot, you have 80+ lbs on your back zipping downhill, when you wipe out, you might stop when you when you hit the lodge", but it is the only way to keep the weight centered over your feet. Just took getting used to.

Steve, when you were in Toelz, were you guys still using the Chippewa boots?

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

We didn't know anything about 3-,3+ etc. Matter of fact your post is the first time I've heard them.

Although, all teams at Flint, did some training on skis, my team was the ski team (for lack of a better term), We were also the scout swimmer/small boat team (small boat, referring to the RB15). Quite a combination.

During the winter in Toelz, spent most our time on skis. Steve, when you were in Toelz, were you guys still using the Chippewa boots?

i believe the use of the UIAA rating system was a direct result of sending NCOs to Bergfuhrer School...they knew the system well and in order to maintain certification as a mountain guide, they had to make so many climbs of a certain difficulty, document the training they administered and the alpine tours they conducted...

all teams trained on skis when i was there, as well...the mountain teams were the cadre for CWT and ski training in the winter and a couple weeks of mountain training in the summer...

except for the SCUBA and HALO teams, the rest of us were expected to be versatile...we did urban training, small boat training, etc...on Flintlock '83, we were to infiltrate our AO using RB 7s...we got in the water and started making toward shore in some pretty rough seas when the battalion commander had the boat swing around and pick us up...he decided that #1 the sea was dangerously rough and #2 because one of the boats the other team was going to use for infil mysteriously developed a knife cut along one of the gunwhales, both teams would infil by helicopter after we returned to Great Yarmouth....

we still had chippewas...you did not break in the boot, your foot conformed to it...i actually still have a brand new pair...i went to Alaska to command a company in the early days of SF branch (1987) when folks weren't sure we could get promoted without having punched the conventional ticket...at the end of my tour, i was the G3 Air of the division and the Div. HQ was about to have an IG...the HHC comedian was required to have certain members of the division staff lay their TA50-901 junk out as part of the inspection and by virtue of my (lack of) rank, i was picked to be the officer from the G3 shop...at the time, i was on orders for the FA 39 program at Bragg, so my stuff was clean enough to be turned in to CIF...anyway, my chips had seen two winters of company command and field time in the snow, two summers on glaciers and rocks, a lot of humping to and fro, and while clean and serviceable, they were worn...the HHC comedian (and i had been one of those) wanted me to DX the boots...i argued that wasn't necessary, he complained to the Chief of Staff and i was asked (directed?) to DX the boots, a week before i went to CIF to turn in my stuff, i was the recepient of a brand new pair of square-toed chippewas, which could not be returned to CIF...so, somewhere in a storage unit in Blanding UT, along with a couple pair of brand new jungle boots and one pair on reasonably new desert boots, my chippewas wait for me to abuse my feet...

[12B4S]

That's interesting lksteve. Same deal when i was there, the Halo team was A-6, the
scuba team A-2. they didn't participate in the ski or mountain training either.

I loved the Chips. I don't ever remember having wet or cold feet while wearing them . As long as you kept them saturated with what we referred to as 'Whale Shit'. When I was leaving Toelz and went to turn in my TA-50 the guy in S-4 was a friend (I always tried to make friends with all support people), he said just make two piles. one on the left is the stuff you want to turn in, to the right, the stuff you want to take home. The Chips went with me, and used them for years afterward when I dragged friends up to WI, winter camping a couple times a year.
Damn!, Some guy went to The Chief of Staff over DX'ing a pair of boots huh? Must not have much to do. At least you got a new pair out of it.

[12B4S]

12B,
"The big thing that everyone uses now as far as sleds go is the Polk. The teams all have 2 or 3 in various configurations. I’m not too smart on them but I was told that some are designed for deeper powder and have higher sides. In my experience they are a lot easier to pull and control, but due to the large amount of stuff we support dudes haul they probably aren’t suited for our mission. That old Akio, aka the beast has been put back into service until we can find a suitable replacement that the support company can get a hold of. When we tried hauling ammo in the Polks they just wouldn’t stay upright or would sink too deep. I am told that there was more snow for this CWT than anyone could ever remember seeing so I guess we weren’t too prepared for that much powder, but we pushed through."

Thanks for the information luvanwilder, Thought by now something better had come along. The akio did serve it's purpose, better than hauling your stuff on a piece of plywood or something. Yes, I ran into and skiied with alot of Germans while there. Alot of them were just crazy good.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

The Chief of Staff over DX'ing a pair of boots huh? Must not have much to do. At least you got a new pair out of it.

the COS had been the G3...called me in, said Captain Muckety-muck is afraid your worn out chips will get gigged by the IG...i told the good Colonel that i knew the freakin' IG and given my week or so to DEROS, i didn't think there'd be any gigs for staff officers with chips that looked like they belonged to a line officer...the COS asked me to exchange the boots so that 'little sniveling bastard' (his words, not mine) would quit complaining about that nasty SF G3 Air guy...i asked him if it was an order and he looked at me and said 'if that's what it takes for me to get him and you out of my life, yes...'

[12B4S]

Hard to believe as a SF guy Steve, you'd be "nasty" to Captain Muckity muck.