Let's talk about our Relationship with Israel

[x-factor]

This is a great thread. Most of my opinions have already been voiced in detail so I'll try to be brief.

Before Oslo, the problem with the occupied territories was that Israel wanted to own them without governing them and so the Palestinians living on that land were completely stagnated politically and economically. They kept the land because they needed it for strategic depth and thats perfectly understandable given their situation at the time, but there was still a moral imperative on them to do right by the people on that land. The Israelis did very little of that for a long time. At that point, I would have said the blame division was more or less 50-50.

However, since Israel agreed in principle to actively pursue a two-state solution, I put the blame about 80-20 on the Palestinians. Does Israel continue to be overly harsh and even cruel? Yes, in someways, but, at the core of the issue is the rejection of Israel's right to exist. Thats the ultimate sticking point that holds all the other obstacles together. If the Palestinians really wanted peace based on an equitable division and an end to violence, they could have it in six months.

The only feasible solution is a clear break with all the historical recriminations: "whatever happened in the past is in the past, we're going to go forward based on the demographic facts of who is on what land today. We can keep hating and cursing each other after that, but at least we'll have a cold war with recognized borders and clear relationship of state-vs-state to work from." In that respect Oslo was a fair deal, struck in good faith and the Palestinians threw it back in Israel (and the US') face.

To paraphrase what someone else said...if Palestine laid down its arms, there'd be (at the very least) detente. If Israel laid down their arms, there'd be a slaughter.

...

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in the history of the development of the IDF and Israeli military policy, I strongly recommend the Knives, Tanks, and Missiles: Israel's Security Revolution by Cohen, Eisenstadt, and Bacevich.

[3SoldierDad]

No one surpasses the Palestinians for terrorist innovation - They are the Innovators of Terror...The entrepreneurs of extremism. They lead and rule in the Silicon Valley of Terror.

I submit that the Palestinians don't want a state - they will never accept a state and they will never recognize Israel and if they do it will be an absolute ruse.

It's simple - They want to destroy Israel. It is their entire fantasy for life...their reason for being.

Is it rational? - No. Can we understand it? - No. Do we need to? - No.
It simply is.

• The situation won't change.
• For Israel, it's either kill or be killed

We have no basis to critique their methods and means for self-defense. They live on the world's most dangerous real-estate and they have been much more restrained than America. How dare we presume to tie their hands.

One of these days the Palestinians are going to get WMD. Currently, they merely lack opportunity to get WMD and therefore lack opportunity to use WMD. The will and purpose are there, however. That's it...They simply lack opportunity. They live contiguous to Israel - and they will get WMD - probably chemical or biological - And they will hit Israel.

They invented hijackings, they invented event terrorism, suicide bombings, media terrorism and the first crude applications of IEDs...they will usher in what Colonel Thomas Hammes, USMC calls in his book The Sling and the Stone 5th Generation War (5GW)...Terrorist applied WMD.

What happens then? Israel will expunge Palestinians from the area.

What should we do? STFU and leave the Israelis alone.

Or, better said by George Bush, Senior prior to the Gulf War- We should watch and learn. Because we'll be witnessing our own future.

I don't fear for our future or for Israel's - I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

[x-factor]

A little grist for the discussion mill...

Results pertaining to the peace process from a 2007 poll of Palestinians:

- A majority of 72% supports the Saudi, or Arab, initiative and 26% oppose it.

- 63% support and 35% oppose mutual recognition of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for the Palestinian people after the establishment of a Palestinian state and the resolution of all issues of conflict.

- A majority of 54% supports and 43% oppose a permanent settlement in which Israel withdraws from all occupied territories with the exception of settlement areas in less than 3% of the West Bank which would be subject to territorial exchange

- 43% support and 55% oppose a permanent settlement in which East Jerusalem would become the capital of the Palestinian state and Israel annexes Jewish neighborhoods and the Wailing Wall.

- 43% support and 54% oppose a permanent settlement in which the refugee problem is resolved based on UN resolution 194 but with restrictions on refugee return to Israel which would be subject to an Israeli decision.

- A majority of 71% support and 27% oppose the conduct of negotiations with Israel that would aim at establishing a Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and about 80% to 90% of the West Bank to be followed by negotiations between the Palestinian state and Israel on a permanent settlement.

- A majority of 85% supports the current ceasefire in the Gaza Strip. Similarly, 84% support the extension of the current ceasefire to include the West Bank.

- 47% believe that Hamas’s goal is to reach a long term Hudna or truce with Israel, 24% believe its goal is to insure the continuation of the conflict and 22% believe its aim is to seek permanent peace with Israel.

Source: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p23e1.html

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

I don't fear for our future or for Israel's - I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

I earned a graduate degree in Applied Linguistics back in the early 80s. I used to teach English to students in the Applied English Center at the University of Kansas...Several of my students were members and/or sympathizers of the Hezbollah from Lebanon and Syria, some were Palestinian radicals. I remember them arguing vociferiously with me and some of the other American students; they breathing their threats on the havoc that America would face if America didn't change its policies in the Mideast. I remember listening for quite a few hours of this day-after-day ....

One day I just blurted out -

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

"You know America is not easily provoked, but if the radicals you speak about ever really hurt us I think all the guilty cities and countries will be wiped out in a matter of weeks."

They got sober, but one laughed and said "How? " I said,

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

"We have a large and well equiped Army -- But, if some crazy country or radicals really hurt us, where we now feel like we are fighting for our survival - We have lots of nuclear weapons and we've used them already when we felt threatened. We're a violent country when provoked - we'd use them again if someone ever succeeds in really hurting us - If it were kill or be killed - We'd wipe out whole populations that sought to do us harm. We would reach them with fire..."

They all became quiet...

I had a similar conversation in Paris with a French Hotel owner in 2003. He sneered that the U.S. better be careful cause the world was sick of their hegomonic behavior - "Some day you're going to wake up and someone is REALLY going to rock you." This condescending, arrogant frog really got my goat - He said this as if the bad news would be limitted to America. Same thing as with the Arabs back in 1983, only this time I kind of snapped. I said (this is a close paraphrase),

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

"You know we're a pretty nice people, and we can accept that people don't like us, but if someone ever succeeds in really hurting us - - I mean hurts us bad, like we fear for our very survival, like you say "they rock us" - We'll do more than rock their world - we'll shatter it like a clay pitcher - whole regions will go to glass. We got nukes, lots of them, and we know where the buttons are. Americans are violent - And, you better watch what you say - we're nice - but, we're listening. If anyone ever hits us, we're coming after the talkers first - guilty or not. This may be revolting to you - But, Americans will skip the idea of hurting others when its survival is threatened and go right to the application of extreme violence. It won't be a hegomonic event - it will be a liquidation event."

When provoked, and when threatened, America has the capacity for some uncommon violence...and the capacity to project uncommon violence.

I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do. The Persians, too...Their radicals are doing a lot of talking. Very dangerous.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by x-factor

A little grist for the discussion mill...

Results pertaining to the peace process from a 2007 poll of Palestinians:



Source: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p23e1.html

A fly in the ointment makes the perfumers oil stink, says Solomon. IMO, there is more than just one fly in those rosy stats. And, Palestine has more than a few flies...What I mean is - one black spot turns the canvas gray - the enemy of Israel is dark. The survey seems more optimistic than any stats I've ever seen - Yet, it's still full of large swaths of folks who despise Israel - The overwhelming fact is that Hamas was elected by 70% of the Palestinians - A group that advocates for terrorism and doesn't recognize Israel. For a whole different set of facts see Barry Rubin at Meria Journal http://meria.idc.ac.il/staff.html

I'm sad to say - I don't believe Palestinians can make peace. I've given up on the notion. The majority would have to have a biblical-like road to Damascus conversion...I just don't believe it. The people have been poisoned - the kids and the families have been poisoned. Hate has been conceived. It's been drunk down to the dregs.

Does that mean you go out to hunt down the rabid Palestinian dog? No, not necessarily - But, you do load your gun this time and don't run and don't negotiate and don't feed the animal. And, be ready when he comes for your neck to shoot him dead.

I think everyone would want to have hope against hope that things could change, but you'd be playing russian-roulette with Israel's survival - And, the eventual survival of the West and even the survival of the world as we know it...The game is on people. If just a few Palestinian citizens among those 25% of the population that despise Israel (more like 70% or 90%) pulls the trigger on WMD - all the Palestinians are going to have to be dealt with - expunged. If I spit in your Margarita, you'll have to pour the entire drink down the drain....Even though only 1% spoiled the entire glass. That's reality in our fallen world.

I'm older than most on this board - Maybe, I'm just a dour cynic.

Wow, I would love to be wrong!

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck