Let's talk about our Relationship with Israel - Page 5

cernunnos · 02-16-2004, 11:48

No, not promising at all. What's needed (allegorically) is a solution
similar in sophistication to Solomon's mitigation of the child custody issue in the bible. 'each party get's half'. I love that one.

Quote from NDD ;
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So, in your opinion, the only way to resolve this is to "de-religiousize" and "de-racisize" the conflict.
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Well, yes.

What we consider to be 'civilized', is to submit our unresolvable
differences to an unbiased 3rd party for mitigation.

We might very well not like the resultant decision but the alternative 'unresolution' is much less desirable.

Most of the pro Israel support is based on biblical beliefs or
similar sentiment. Not much middle ground there.

Quote from NDD ;
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the opposing factions are two of the most religiously devout and racially oppressed groups in history? That are fighting over land considered by considered by both to be sacred?
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Very good point. I see it though, as a little more based on the
ownership of the land. The 'Pals' are defending their right to the territories based on inhabitance over the last 2000 years. Not so much 'for Islam.' That area has always been multicultural. Christians were there long before Islam.

Religion is being used as justification by the Israelis and the Pals suppporters. As religion has been, thoughout recorded history.

I believe in God btw. I'm just pointing out that religion has been,
'the politician's bitch' quite a bit in history.

Valhal · 02-16-2004, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by cernunnos
I believe in God btw. I'm just pointing out that religion has been,
'the politician's bitch' quite a bit in history.

I've never heard it put quite like that. LOL Sounds like a rap song.

CSB · 02-16-2004, 19:57

Quote:

Once you get your feet on the ground in that region - you wil begin to understand where the REAL hate and one-sided bias lies - and it sure aint on the Israeli side.

That's why I'm also waiting for Hoepoe to join the discussion.

Adam White · 02-16-2004, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by cernunnos What we consider to be 'civilized', is to submit our unresolvable
differences to an unbiased 3rd party for mitigation.

We might very well not like the resultant decision but the alternative 'unresolution' is much less desirable.

1948 UN Partition plan - we've all been there, done that. Only one side accepted the results - and has been at war defending its very right to exist ever since.

Quote:

Most of the pro Israel support is based on biblical beliefs or
similar sentiment. Not much middle ground there.

I find that hard to believe. While admittedy there are some very religious-oriented arguments, the lack of religiousness in Israeli society is actually quite amazing. The IDF actually has to make special accomodations for the more observant Jews - and for the a long time the most conservative groups were exempt from military service, though I understand now there are actually units consisting only of the bearded and long-sideburned set - HOEPOE, speak up, man.

Within the US, religion is probably even less significant.

Admittedly it is kind of hard to read up on the 1967 and 1973 wars and not think that a certain divine power was siding with a certain non-Arab army.

cernunnos · 02-17-2004, 08:59

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam White \

1948 UN Partition plan - we've all been there, done that. Only one side accepted the results - and has been at war defending its very right to exist ever since.

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In '48, the issue was definately Israel's survival and the UN was
in it's infancy.

I still think 3rd party arbitration is the only hope.

I know a few Sabras personally and so I know that the belief that the entire region belongs to them by 'devine right' is still a motivating force.
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Quote:

Originally posted by Adam White \
I find that hard to believe. While admittedy there are some very religious-oriented arguments, the lack of religiousness in Israeli society is actually quite amazing. The IDF actually has to make special accomodations for the more observant Jews - and for the a long time the most conservative groups were exempt from military service, though I understand now there are actually units consisting only of the bearded and long-sideburned set - HOEPOE, speak up, man.

Within the US, religion is probably even less significant.

__________________________________________________ __

I mainly meant that support in the U.S. was based on the belief.
__________________________________________________ __

Admittedly it is kind of hard to read up on the 1967 and 1973 wars and not think that a certain divine power was siding with a certain non-Arab army.
__________________________________________________ _

Especially if you read Haim Herzog's book. I believe that if the U.S.
withdrew it's aid, the Israelis would find a way to end the conflict
quickly, before they meet economic ruin. Anyway, it should be their issue.

Basically, I just want my country out of the equation.

Noslack71 · 02-19-2004, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Big wide paddle today with many subtopics:

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

Great topic, from what I have read thus far, it certainly inspires some interesting emotions.

1. That depends. I believe that Israel would sacrifice, or at least risk sacrificing the relationship with the US in order to survive (The Liberty and Pollard for example) I do not believe the US would feel it would ever be in a position where they would have to make that choice to survive as a nation. It is pretty difficult to have a close alliance with such a big difference in power.
2. Yes, if only to exert enough influence over them to keep from really kicking ass and screwing up the flow of Europes oil.
3. I think they are heading in a direction where they will basically have to practice a form of "Apartheid" in order to maintain the character of the country. They cannot give the Palestinians the vote and still exist. They cannot forcibly eject the Palestinians that are citizens of Israel and they will not have peace as long as the Palestinians exist. Our "closet ally" in the mideast is on the verge of becomming a segregated police state that discriminates (in the eyes of much of the world) against people based on race and religion. I am not really sure if this could have been avoided given the passions and personalities involved in the decision making.
4.) It seems that almost every administration since the 50's has tried to modify US policy in some manner in order to bring change. There are a finite number of changes we can make to our policy in hopes of bringing peace.
The one change we have never tried is intervention. I am not advocating that, it just seems that professional soldiers might consider the possibility. The big unasked question in this seems to be, if necessary,
Could the US military intervene militarily in Israel/Palestine to bring peace without causing great dissent in the ranks and throughout the US?
This seems to be unthinkable but, what lenghts would the US go to either to stop or end a real serious war in that region given the impact on our economic and political interest such a conflict would have? I do not have any answers, only questions.

sg1987 · 05-11-2007, 06:43

Bump. Any thoughts from members who came here since Feb 04?

3SoldierDad · 05-22-2007, 12:49

Here are some thoughts...I do confess I am disposed toward Israel and am a judeophile. Also, I begin with the assumption that the GWOT began in Israel among the inventors of modern terrorism the Palestinians. If ever a people needed to be put down and pushed out, it is those Jordanian Arabs that people commonly refer to as Palestinians. Those folks need a good ol' fashioned spanking, or as my QP friend Willie says - those guys need a "not so friendly a@#-wupping..."

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

Yes, I believe Israel is our closest ally - We share similar values and desires to live and let live. Globally we are both hated for similar reasons. What are they? Among other reasons, we are both, relatively speaking, successful states - politically free, economically vibrant, and hopeful. This is simplistic, but both states are guardians of the dominant western culture. I believe Jews have made one of the largest contributions to the West's culture - this is my belief - I may be wrong; I frequently am.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

Yes, I do. They are the only free state in the Mideast. They are on the front lines of the battle against Islamic intolerance...Terrorism. Modern terrorism was an invention of the Palestinians - Or, I should say Jordanian Arabs. I think we should encourage Israel to take their gloves off with the blood sick Arabs and stop pussy-footing around and push every single Palestinian into Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon - every single civilian - the people have been poisoned - they've poisoned the kids, the women and the elderly. I see no innocent people among these Arabs...If the people keep violently agitating Israel - Israel should widen their borders to make an ever larger buffer for themselves until the Arab fascists are pushed unto the farthest reaches of the region. The best thing Israel could do is to stop trying to run a popularity contest among the world's nations and endeavoring to placate the West. It's ridiculous - they need to stand their ground or risk destruction. We need to get out of their way.

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

Some...But, the Jews have an attitude - and, for great reason. If Israel isn't for Israel than who will be? They are a lot more patient than we gringos. As a people both Jews and Israel just want to be left freak'n alone for-crying-out-loud. Moreover, I think the God of the universe is getting kind of pissed at the world's double-standard against those poor folks. We mess with them at our own peril. Darn, we need to be careful...

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

Yep...I'd back-off and let them be. It scares me that Condelezza Rice, et. al. compelled Israel to leave Gaza to terrorists ... What a terrible mistake. Gaza is now a huge haven for terrorists - they're taking daily rocket fire. What would we do if this we're happening on our border? Stop pressuring these people to make peace with these thugs. Wow, it's crazy...We should permit the Israelis to take care of themselves - We could learn a thing or two. One last point - IMO, they don't need our help...However, down the road we may darn-toot'n need theirs.

That's my $0.02...

Three Soldier Dad - Chuck

**The Reaper** · 05-22-2007, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

One last point - IMO, they don't need our help...However, down the road we may darn-toot'n need theirs.

That's my $0.02...

Three Soldier Dad - Chuck

Chuck:

If you really believe that, you need to take a long hard look at which nation is the number one recipient of US foreign aid, and who gets the majority of FMS and IMET dollars. They also get special privileges, like all of the money up front on 1 Oct at the beginning of the Fiscal Year. Everyone else gets it as they spend it. The Israelis bank the foreign aid money and collect interest on it till they spend it later in the year. Check it out.

Without US fnancial and military support, Israel would have to make tremendous changes in the way they operate.

Not saying that the policy is right or wrong, just that you do not seem to have all of the facts.

TR

3SoldierDad · 05-22-2007, 13:45

If you really believe that, you need to take a long hard look at which nation is the number one recipient of US foreign aid, and who gets the majority of FMS and IMET dollars.

I know that they receive tons of aid...I'm sure they think they need it. I don't think they do. I think this aid probably hurts them. They'd probably cry loud if they didn't get it - but, pain can be VERY good. I don't think the Egyptians or the Saudis or anyone in that region should get our military help. Perhaps, I'm naive...Who isn't naive when it comes to that area of the world?

They also get special privileges, like all of the money up front on 1 Oct at the beginning of the Fiscal Year. Everyone else gets it as they spend it. The Israelis bank the foreign aid money and collect interest on it till they spend it later in the year. Check it out.

As a people, they know how to handle cash...Who's fault is that? Should they apologize for working our system? Have they broken any laws? Nope...Why do certain folks being clever get us so worked-up?

Without US fnancial and military support, Israel would have to make tremendous changes in the way they operate.

Yep, they'd have to make changes - change is good. Hey, I'm not God -- I gave you my opinion.

Not saying that the policy is right or wrong, just that you do not seem to have all of the facts.

No I don't have all the facts - I never have. Hey, if we had to have all the facts to state our opinion this board would be almost empty, wouldn't it? ;-)

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

P.S. Reaper, PS site is a wonderful resource - I see you're a frequent poster...Thanks for all the hard work.

**The Reaper** · 05-22-2007, 14:26

Well, looks like you may not be happy with where your foreign aid is going. In 1994, the top nations receiving US aid were 1) Israel $3.0 B, 2) Egypt, $2.1 B, and 3) Russia, $1.4 B. In 2004, the situation had changed slightly with the Billion Dollar Aid Club line-up being 1) Iraq $18.44 B, 2) Israel $2.62 B, 3) Eypt $1.87 B, and 4) Afghanistan $1.77 B.

I will not attempt to explain the rationale of paying nations not to go to war with each other.

In case you were unaware, the 1973 gas crisis was largely because the US decided to stand by Israel and rushed air to air and anti-tank missiles to them when they ran short in the Seven Day War.

TR

x SF med · 05-22-2007, 14:30

Chuck-
TR is not only a frequent poster, but a plankholder, and an amzing resource for information.

May I ask a favor of you? Please, if you could, tone down the type size and the color and the bolding, some of us may have deteriorating eyesight, but that last post was a bit over the top in in all three categories. Don't you think?

3SoldierDad · 05-22-2007, 15:03

Chuck-
TR is not only a frequent poster, but a plankholder, and an amzing resource for information.

I saw TR averaged 8.8 posts per day and the content is excellent - that's certainly something. And, yes, with 21 years in the SF - A wonderful resource...

May I ask a favor of you? Please, if you could, tone down the type size and the color and the bolding, some of us may have deteriorating eyesight, but that last post was a bit over the top in in all three categories. Don't you think?

Dude, my pleasure - Sorry, I turn 48 in three weeks and my eyes are going, too - I deal with it differently, I guess

...Does this look better?

3SoldierDad · 05-22-2007, 15:40

Well, looks like you may not be happy with where your foreign aid is going.

Shoulder Shrug - Not really, but what can you do?

In 1994, the top nations receiving US aid were 1) Israel $3.0 B, 2) Egypt, $2.1 B, and 3) Russia, $1.4 B. In 2004, the situation had changed slightly with the Billion Dollar Aid Club line-up being 1) Iraq $18.44 B, 2) Israel $2.62 B, 3) Eypt $1.87 B, and 4) Afghanistan $1.77 B.

Believe it or not, with a little rounding, I know these figures, too. It doesn't change my views - In fact, it reinforces my views.

I will not attempt to explain the rationale of paying nations not to go to war with each other.

Whereas, I'm not an experienced soldier, I am a very experienced taxpayer...I understand the rationale. Nevertheless, the payola system doesn't seem to always work, does it? Folks say it takes a John to lay with a whore - Is that what we are? I hope not. It may be realpolitik, but it is shameful, nevertheless. I believe America must stop paying people to do what is right. Real violence early can be better than seeing explosive pent-up violence later. What kind of return are we having on our investments into the Mideast?...."paying them not to go to war."..Maybe, we should get a refund? I'm being facetious, of course - but half serious.

In case you were unaware, the 1973 gas crisis was largely because the US decided to stand by Israel and rushed air to air and anti-tank missiles to them when they ran short in the Seven Day War.

TR, IMO, it was a small price to pay considering letting Russia dominate the Mideast could have knocked us clear into a depression and perhaps WWWIII. However, unlike 1973 I don't think Israel needs an emergency weapons system from us in a pinch - They're now a regional power themselves. In fact, I heard we are now buying a vast amount of weapons from Israel.

Again, I say, leave Israel alone...

Forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying I have all the answers...I certainly don't. You can say - "Well, Chuck that's just your opinion." And you're right, but it is the only opinion that I've got - mine.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

hoepoe · 05-22-2007, 15:45

Hello folks.

I can't believe i missed this back in '04.

We receive plenty aid from the US, both fiscal and moral support/political backing and military supplies (as well as the US veto when we need in in the UN.)

I believe we receive this first and foremost as it is in the US's interest to have a (semi) stable democratic ally in this wonderful region. Not necessarily only because the US loves us. This is ok "business is business"

What would happen without the US aid? I would be tough, very tough, but we would survive (we have no choice). Keep in mind Israel has a lot of home grown talent, technology and resources to offer. We do have our own military, our own strong economy and our own government,)

Are we appreciative of the US? Damn right we are! On independence day here we put Israeli flags on our cars (about A3 size off the window or hood). Some people ( few, but still) put US flags alongside them on the cars that day,(next year i'll get a pic)

If you ask the majority of Israelis what they think they will tell you how wonderful the US is, Israel in many ways is trying to mimic the US regarding "way of life". It cannot happen of course, but the average man on the street loves the US as more than an ally, more like a big successful cousin.

Bottom line, i believe we need the US and the US needs us. As long as that co-dependency exists at some level relations will continue to strengthen.

It's a dog-eat-dog world and Israel is clearly the smaller dog in this case, BUT the biggest friend of the US for miles.

Hoepoe

edited to add: If you're ever out here, go see Latrun, the IDF Armoured Corps museum.. It is also the landmark for allied forces, you will see standing high, 3 US flags alongside 3 Israeli flags, at an IDF museum,