Let's talk about our Relationship with Israel

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well said sluggo. Nice post.

[Surgicalcric]

The US' policies or lack thereof are not going to stop the Israelis from building what it sees as a defense against the Palestinian terror attacks. Isreal is not going to withdraw its soldiers from the West Bank and Gaza because the US says they should. As was stated before Israelis are a headstrong people. The only bargaining tool the Palestinians bring to the table is terror and their diplomats comes strapped with 30lbs of comp B.

Each time there has been a cease fire in the past two years it has been broken by the homicide bombers, not by the Israelis. They walk into the middle of busy bus stops, or cafe's, or shopping malls and kill untold numbers of civilians indiscriminately. In response the IDF returns to the occupied territories, hunts down and captures or kills the terrorists responsible for such actions. In the midst of these military campaigns there is collateral damage and civilians die more often then not. It is a terrible thing, but atleast they are not the intended targets. The Palestinians say they want peace while praying for the end of the nation of Israel. They broker deals they have no plan on keeping.

Yasar Arafat only wants one thing, Israelis dead. He is nothing more than a terrorist himself. If he truly wanted peace with Israel then he would put a stop to the bombing. Since he has not one must only presume he is part of them.

Palestine and Arafat declare they want a state but yet the more they are given the more they want. In 1998 40% of the nation was given to Palestine and now they want more. Where would you have Israel move to? They are a people with a sea on one side and enemies on the other three. Where should they take refuge then? It would be much simpler for the Palestinians to be absorbed into Lebanon, or Jordan, or Egypt, etc.. The reason they cant be is because noone wants them. Yasar Arafat has been expelled from Jordan, Lebanon, and Tunisia. He was kicked out because he was nothing more than a terrorist, in the 70-80's and now in 2003 he is still a terrorist.

I would like to see peace in the region. God knows they have been fighting long enough. For this to happen Arafat need to be exiled yet again or be imprisoned or killed. Until this happens the cycle will continue.

Sorry for the rambling.

[Adam White]

Originally posted by Valhal
[B]Over the years the US has given Israel staggering amounts of aid. So we definitely consider them an important ally. But why is that? Not because of any cultural ties. If I my be non PC it is because it affords us a solid piece of ground in order to dominate the area if it comes down to that. The ME is of dire importance to the US and the world. We will never let the oil spigot be taken away from us. The Israelis make a perfect ally and supporting them like we do is very Machiavellian.
That's my attempt to distill the pure grain from the BS. The only credentials I have is that I kick ass at RISK.

Lets not keep score but lets just say that both sides have killed innocent lives quite frequently.

As for the Media, I guess it depends where you get your info. And I agree RL I don't know what to make out of Chomsky but he is passionate about this issue. I wish I was more erudite and had the time to look at both sides in depth.

Chomsky is a linguist who uses his position of tenure to play-act that he has some background or knowledge in international relations. You should read him not as a PhD (in anything relating to what he rambles about) , but as a anti-American with an axe to grind.

There have been numerous UN resolutions demanding that Israel go back to the 1967 borders and stop setting up colonies within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Only 2 votes opposed the resolutions. Can you guess who?

There have been numerous resolutions on all sides of this issue. Israel believes they risk certain doom if they give up what little ground they have - they learned this lesson the hard way - in 1967 and 1973. I love how the Palestinian sympathisers love to tout these UN resolutions - and fail to mention that it was an all out ATTACK on Israel that altered those borders to begin with. Every act by Osrael was purely defensive, and done to insure its own survival.

Also, Israel would GLADLY go to those borders if they could have some guarantee of peace and survival. The issue that collapsed the last peace talks was when Egypt wanted to populate the ISRAEL controlled areas with more "Palestinians" than there were Jews in all of Israel- effectilvely meaning that - in the democracy that is Israel - there would be NO MORE ISRAEL.

Finally - those settlements in "Palestinian lands" brings up several points. The fact that they are even called "Palestinian" lands shows that Israel gave them to them - since after the first (1948) war - I would not have blamed them if they just claimed the whole country for themselves. Also, those settlements are ILLEGAL under ISRAELI law. The government is not establishing them. However, as a DEMOCRACY, they can't just tear down people homes without due process. You aren't going to see much support for tearing down homes when TERRORISTS are the ones most concerned about it.

NOBODY was living there before the settlements. This is akin to the whole debate about Israel. When the country was nothing but wasteland - nobody gave a shit. Every time Israel or Israelis try to build something nice - suddenly the Palestinians want to take it or blow it up. It is nothing but envy, pure and simple.

The Arab world sees that the US is acting hypocritically. Much of the bad sentiments they feel towards us has to do with the way we handle the Israeli Palestinian issue. Very one sided.

Egypt is one of the strongest financial and military supporters of Palestinians. Much of the recent activity in Gaza has been to cut off flows of hardware, in fact. We give MORE FOREIGN AID to Egypt than we do Israel. The only thing "one-sided" is the sources that act as if our foreign policy is "one-sided."

You may not realize it, but the press is very biased AGAINST Israel. Once you get your feet on the ground in that region - you wil begin to understand where the REAL hate and one-sided bias lies - and it sure aint on the Israeli side.

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Big wide paddle today with many subtopics:

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

Our strong relationship with Israel is based upon words written in the Bible. Straight and simple.

[Valhal]

Headstrong they might be, but if America threatens to take away the Billions in aid eventually it will have an effect. Israel does need that money, and who else will they get it from. No American President wants to go down that path because there is a strong Jewish lobby that will scream bloody murder, especially in an election year. Egypt does not get more aid than Israel, here are some links I found with a quick google search.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

http://www.ccmep.org/hotnews2/usforeignaid041402.html


There are militant Israeli's that have and will sabotage any peace efforts. So once again there is plenty of guilt and blame on both sides. As you said SC you are emotionally invested in this so maybe it is hard to look at this objectively. A good start might be to read Righteous Victims by Benny Morris. He is a Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel and this book is considered by historians as an objective and accurate accounting.

Arafat is a pig.

Adam:
You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced. And it would not be easier for the surrounding Arab countries to absorb the Palestinians.

Chomsky is third on my list and was read with a grain of salt. When I study something I try to get all sides. I am not afraid to do so. I find it a good way to get to the heart of an issue. I noticed no one mentioned anything about Benny Morris.

I have no emotional ties to this issue, but I do see it as central to US security and strategy, and thus important to be knowledgeable on.

Outside of the US the Media is more sympathetic to the Palestinians. In the US I do not find that to be the case.

Adam your whole tone shows that you hold the entire Palestinian population in low esteem. Is that being fair? They are an oppressed people. They have been given the shaft numerous times, used as a political pawn by the bigger players around them, with the end result being that they lose and suffer.

There is truth in what Doc has said, but that is another long post.

There is strong pressure within Israel to wrest control of greater Zion as defined in biblical terms. That is why the settlers go into the West Bank. Manifest Destiny.

[CRad]

Originally posted by Valhal

You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced.

When was it theirs exclusively? How long ago. Please explain that one to me.

Manifest Destiny.

What does that mean to you and how does it relate to Israel.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Valhal
...As you said SC you are emotionally invested in this so maybe it is hard to look at this objectively. A good start might be to read Righteous Victims by Benny Morris. He is a Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel and this book is considered by historians as an objective and accurate accounting...

Objectivity is not the issue. Its discussing a highly controversial issue among friends that is the problem.

I will pick up the book and give it a look through.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Valhal
[B...You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced. And it would not be easier for the surrounding Arab countries to absorb the Palestinians...[/B]

I suppose you think Israel should be wandering around in the wilderness once again. And explain how it would not be easier for the Palestinians to be absorbed into other Arabic nations in the region other than the fact noone wants them because they are troublemakers.

And thanks again.

[Adam White]

Valhal: I hold TERRORISTS in low esteem. I also hold people who twist the truth for political reasons in low esteem. What did I ever write that made you think I had some collective dislike for any entire ethnic group?

There are a shitload of Palestinians who live and work in Israel and manage just fine. There are no doubt many fine examples as well in the Palestinian controlled lands - though they are much more immersed in the anti-Israel propaganda - afetr all, hatred is what keeps their "leaders" in power.

Heck, there are PALESTINIANS in the Israeli parliament!

I did not talk about the 40% and 1998 issue - but I will continue. I challenge you to research who was living in much of this land 100 years ago. In most cases - nobody. In still other cases, a variety of people, from Jews, to Arabs, to Drews (did I spell that right?). Right now, the only area where all religions and groups are respected and tolerated is in ISRAEL!

There has always been disputes over this land - especially after the influx of Jewish immigration beginning in the late 19th century - and expanding significantly after WWII. In all of this, NOBODY was ever forcibly kicked out from ANYWHERE. The last people to have been forcibly kicked from that region were the Jews - which led to the diaspora - but even during that time, many Jews STILL lived in that land.

To try to settle things, the UN developed a partition plan - the Arabs refused it - and demanded ALL of the land for themselves. All the Jews wanted was a place to live in peace. They have been at a war for their very right to exist ever since. Every refugee is a refugee of a war STARTED and PROPAGATED by other Arab nations.

There are millions of displaced Palestinians living in camps in Egypt that have been there since the 1940s! How many refugees have come to the US and other countries since then? Are they living in camps or have they joined the society? There are more Jews in the US than in Israel. I don't have the numbers, but I bet a the numbers descended from WWII era immigrants are pretty damn close to the numbers of Palestinians STILL IN CAMPS in their "brother" nations. Where then, is the problem? Palestinians in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do in any Arab country - yet you say they are "oppressed" by ISRAEL?

YOUR whole tone shows that you are committed to your warped view of things in that area - you clearly did not read or did not accept much of what I typed earlier. To even mention the extremists Jews is a joke - since Israel has and will again arrested and killed their own extremists, while the terrorists promote and idolize theirs. The difference is night and day. I would go so far at to say that the IDF actually has stricter ROE than US forces in most instances. You mention Israeli atrocities - if you had any CLUE of how ferociously the IDF slams down on soldiers who come even CLOSE to violating ROE you would not be talking such BS.

How many Israelis, Egyptians, Palestinians have you worked with? Have you ever been to that region? While Israeli school children embrace tolerance and discuss inclusiveness, Palestinian kids are inundated with messages of hate - and are taught and manipulated at a young age from some very slick, high production value hate-filledliterature and films- almost always published or produced outside of Israel (frequently Egypt). The shear amount of anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli propaganda in that region is sickening.

Is your entire opinion based on books of someone ELSE'S opinion? Open your eyes and you may be amazed at what you see.

If tomorrow the terrorists stopped killing, their would be peace in Israel and Palestinians would begin to live better. If tomorrow the Israelis stopped fighting, Israel would cease to exist by next week.

[Valhal]

I am the whipping boy.

I was going to respond but what's the use. What is evident is that this is an important topic and certainly a charged one. I am not here on PS to get into a political debate. I am here to learn how to be a Professional Soldier.

If anything the only thing I would like to get across is that oftentimes people choose one side without ever looking into another perspective. I could argue the Israeli side as well.

I urge you all to read Benny Morris's book.

Have a good weekend,
.... and happy Valentines Day.
Mark

[Adam White]

Originally posted by Valhal
I am the whipping boy.

I was going to respond but what's the use. What is evident is that this is an important topic and certainly a charged one. I am not here on PS to get into a political debate. I am here to learn how to be a Professional Soldier.

If anything the only thing I would like to get across is that oftentimes people choose one side without ever looking into another perspective. I could argue the Israeli side as well.

I urge you all to read Benny Morris's book.

Have a good weekend,
.... and happy Valentines Day.
Mark

Let me assure you, I am intimately familiar with the "Palestinian" side - actually the "Arab" side, since most of the debate and argument comes from OUTSIDE of Israeli borders - the Palestinians being essentially pawns in an age-old game. I regularly read the English language Arab press - and have read much of the pro-Palestinian literature. In fact, I have read enough to recgnize the same media smear tactics being used against the US that have for years been used against Israel. You see, the US and Israel have much more in common than many realize.

In addition, I - like no doubt most Americans - grew up being taught the party line that Israel was as much to blame as the terrorists for the current situation - in fact, I distinctly remember several classes in high school where (surprise, surprise) every one of us students supported the Palestinian point of view, while the teacher half-heartedly urged us to look at both sides (while clearly glad we had all been convinced he was right). Heck, it is all we were exposed to - you would have to have had external family or other such influences to believe anything else - and none of us did.

I am familiar with Dr. Morris - and, while I have not read the book you mention, I am familiar with his findings and research. I only mentioned Chomsky because you had specifically brought him up in the post I quoted.

Incidentally - you may be interested in this article about Dr. Morris from a pro-Palestinian website - seems his own attempts at intellectual honesty have now put him in negative favor with the self-proclaimed Palestinian intellegentsia: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2379.shtml.

There is also a great picture there of a Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan - particularly interesting when you consider that over half of Jordan is of the same ethnic group - and the Palestinians STILL live in isolated camps. Jordan also does not want an independant West Bank on its border (of course, that goes against the image of "Arab brotherhood" so you will not hear that from the "Arab press."

[CRad]

Well WB, you are right and here are some figures to back up your argument.
______________
Program Budget Analysis (1993-2002)
Following the signing of the Oslo accords in September 1993, the U.S. government provided $375 million between 1993 and 1998 through USAID to implement a development program in the West Bank and Gaza.

In 1999, the USAID fiscal year program budget was $75 million and in 2000 its level increased to $85 million. In 2000, the U.S. Congress approved an additional $400 million to add to the USAID West Bank and Gaza program to facilitate implementation of the Wye River Accords.

In 2001, USAID West Bank/Gaza's program budget remained at $85 million. In 2002, USAID received $75 million from Congress for its program. USAID funding for the West Bank and Gaza between 1993 and 2002 totaled approximately $1 billion. Of this amount, $540 million had been awarded through September 2000 and approximately $460 million will be awarded by September 30, 2002. All USAID projects are competitevely awarded.

Using the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Planning and International Cooperation's (MOPIC) comparative data, the U.S. is, by far, the highest bilateral donor in the West Bank and Gaza.

(Other countires may be more pro-palestine than we are but we are the ones putting our money where our mouth is.)
_____________
We do give more money to Israel but they buy from us.

THE USAID PROGRAM: The United States, acting through the USAID, will provide $720,000,000 in FY 2002 funds to Israel as a cash transfer. These funds will be used by Israel primarily for repayment of debt to the United States, including re-financed Foreign Military Sales debt, and purchases of goods and services from the United States. (kind of a nifty way of getting our money back) The U.S. State Department will continue to encourage Israeli reform to reduce government spending and deficits, to improve tax and public wage structures, to increase privatization, to reform labor markets, and to continue to liberalize its trade regime.

In FY 2003, the anticipated cash transfer will be $600,000,000.
OTHER DONORS: The United States is the largest bilateral donor to Israel.

[Roguish Lawyer]

C'mon, Hoepoe. I see you lurking. Post! LOL

[cernunnos]

RL Wrote ;

"Big wide paddle today with many subtopics:

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, my intro as requested ; I'm a student of int'l affairs/culture based on my background in int'l business. I've extensive experience dealing with Israelis and Arabs in business. As well as ancient history. I'm appreciative of the info I've gotten from these forums as well as good discussion. (Wow, a ME thread with no profanity! Has to be a record!)

Replies ;

1: Definately. But it's mostly one sided. Johnathan Pollard, USS
Liberty, how Israel got their nuke program underscore this
point. Our 'An enemy of my enemy philosophy' has drawbacks.

2: They're our only ally in this important region. But, the 'alliance'
is mostly one sided.

3: Zionism.

4: I'd threaten to cut off all aid till Israel complied with the UN's
primary directives regarding land boundries. I feel that the
UN is about the only 'agency' with a chance to mitigate the
situation. Unfortunately.

The two factions are divided strictly along the lines of racism and religous fanaticism. The matter will only be resolved by sticking to a non religous, legalistic initiative. I am convinced that history shows that religion never worked positively in a national context.

And it isn't just the Europeans that see it this way. Almost everybody other than the U.S. in the world sees the problem as plain, old fashioned, greed for land, religous fanaticism, and racism.

Israel is certainly the most sophisticated player in that arena and
so by default, only they have the capability to resolve the matter.

Maybe the fence is a good idea. I don't see how it'll work though,
since the 'Pals' are Israel's cheap labor force.

Ramble over.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Very interesting comments. Thank you for those.

I find this particularly interesting

The two factions are divided strictly along the lines of racism and religous fanaticism. The matter will only be resolved by sticking to a non religous, legalistic initiative. I am convinced that history shows that religion never worked positively in a national context.

So, in your opinion, the only way to resolve this is to "de-religiousize" and "de-racisize" the conflict - the conflict in which the opposing factions are two of the most religiously devout and racially oppressed groups in history? That are fighting over land considered by both the be sacred?

Doesn't sound promising.