Let's talk about our Relationship with Israel

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The USS Liberty?

Yes, that's what I thought.

Terry

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The USS Liberty?

Speaking of that ship, I tried to get Bo McCormick to sign up here but I don't think he ever did.

[NousDefionsDoc]

They shouldn't have shot it up - but that's a good example of why when someone yells "Fight! fight!" I don't go running down there to watch.

[Surgicalcric]

CPTAUSRET, NDD:

I totally agree with the money issues. The problem is how do you tell them, "I know you are being slaughtered here, but dont fight back. Or when you do dont be so obvious about it." I dont know the answer to it.

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
They shouldn't have shot it up -

Concur, never believed it was an accident.

Terry

[NousDefionsDoc]

The answer is "Thank you very much Uncle Sugar, we don't want your aid because the conditions are not compatible with our national interests."

Once they quit taking the aid, what's the US going to tell them?

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
CPTAUSRET, NDD:

I totally agree with the money issues. The problem is how do you tell them, "I know you are being slaughtered here, but dont fight back. Or when you do dont be so obvious about it." I dont know the answer to it.

You are not alone. I don't know the answer either:

Terry

[CSB]

First, before venturing to give an opinion, allow me to post my credentials:



1 - From the Israeli point of view, America is absolutely their closest and most important ally. There is no other nation they respect more, envy more, or are more willing to help with shared national intelligence resources. From the American point of view, Israel is an ally, but ranks with Taiwan, Korea, etc. as more of a military/security/trade partner than a true cutural friend in the sense of shared history/language, etc.

2 - As the sole democracy in the mideast, and as the undisputed military power in the mideast, it is in our national interest to have Israel as a close ally. (Here comes the "... but, ..."). Israel's first and most important objective is the continued existence of the nation of Israel. Others have said it better than me, but Israel cannot afford to lose a war, not even a major battle. It would mean the end of the nation. And with that at stake, Israel's circle of friends stops at it's own borders: "The only secure ground is the ground under your boots."

3 - I fully agree with the macro-politics of the government of Israel. Strategic alliances, military configuration, and international cooperation/confrontation is exactly as it should be to advance Israeli interests and deny support to Israel's enemies. At the micro-politics and face-to-face level Israel can be incredibly stupid. Soldiers of the IDF can be cold, nasty, brutish and mean when such action is not required. The iron fist must have a velvet glove. Prime example: the bulldozer death of the American peacenik. She should heve been picked up hands and feet and given the bum's rush to the next outgoing flight from Ben Gurion International Airport. Her death created a "martyr," encouraged the insurgents, and worst of all: did nothing to create a more peaceable population in Gaza.

4 - Would I change our relationship? No. Israel does not respond well to threats, any more than the members of this board respond well to threats. As a nation, Israel will stand up for itself before bowing to any "pressure." I think we need to work on Syria, Lebanon, and yes, the House of Saud, before we can expect Israel to listen to the United States on how to manage their affairs.

[pulque]

Originally posted by CSB
[B] From the American point of view, Israel is an ally, but ranks with Taiwan, Korea, etc. as more of a military/security/trade partner than a true cutural friend in the sense of shared history/language, etc.

Would I change our relationship? No. Israel does not respond well to threats, any more than the members of this board respond well to threats. As a nation, Israel will stand up for itself before bowing to any "pressure." I think we need to work on Syria, Lebanon, and yes, the House of Saud, before we can expect Israel to listen to the United States on how to manage their affairs.

Sir, I am ignorant of the amount of economic and military aid given to Taiwan and Korea. Would reducing the amount of military and economic aid given to Israel be a form of futile pressure in your opinion (from the Israeli POV and the U.S. POV)?

respectfully submitted.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by pulque
Sir, I am ignorant of the amount of economic and military aid given to Taiwan and Korea. Would reducing the amount of military and economic aid given to Israel be a form of futile pressure in your opinion (from the Israeli POV and the U.S. POV)?

respectfully submitted.

Did you curtsey when you wrote that? He ain't the Pope.

And while we're on the subject, next one calls me sir is going to be in big trouble...LOL

[pulque]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Did you curtsey when you wrote that? He ain't the Pope.

I did not know whether he was the pope or not. I am hoping to garner favor to get papal blessings for tango and flamenco. Additionally, his (albeit) credentialed post seemed exceptionally reasoned and worthy of respect.

And while we're on the subject, next one calls me sir is going to be in big trouble...LOL

Will comply El Senor.

[CRad]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
OK, you want a lawyer?

Mrs. CRad, the question I am asking you actually is a little bit different. Madame reporter, would you please read back the question?



Would you please answer the question? LOL

The people at my house were nagging for chow. I hate when they line up and bang their cups on the bars.

Anytime a person only considered one side and tosses the other away as irrelevant they are biased, in my opinion.

A person who actually was considering a mainstream opinion would look at the larger picture, grand scheme of things such as the attitudes and opinions of other countries in the Middle East toward the Israelis as well as the Palistinians. You may be mislead by me using mainstream. The I probably should be using is well-rounded or even carefully considered.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Respect yes. Not fear.

"El Senor" Smart aleck

[CSB]

It is difficult to directly measure the amount of foreign aid to the countries mentioned (Korea and Taiwan). While there are direct grants to Israel (and Egypt) as a reward and incentive for the Camp David Peace treaty, there are Foreign Military Sales credits and guarantees to those and other countries that are more intangible, and there are indirect means of assistance.

For example, those of us who served in Korea will remember KATUSA's - Korean Augmentation to the United States Army - the Korean soldiers who lived and worked with US forces, filling T.O. & E. positions in US units. Is the payroll of KATUSA's -- made by the United States -- "foreign aid." For that matter, is the entire presence of the U.S. Forces Korea a form of foreign aid?

Reducing grants and guarantees to Israel may weaken their defensive ability, but my experience with Israelis is that they are a proud and headstrong people -- not unlike the United States itself -- who cannot be bullied into making changes in foreign policy based on the carrot and stick of US financial assistance.

For example, I have heard it suggested that the United States should freeze foreign military assistance to Israel if Israel constructs the security fence along the Green Line; or if Israel builds any part of the fence east of the Green Line. "Cut off the aid, that will make them stop" is the theory.

Based on what I know of Israel, if the government feels that the fence is the best way to preclude terrorist attacks, then the fence will be built even if it means the loss of U.S. aid.

Again, Israel will do what is best for Israel (who can blame them) even if it causes difficulties with their principal ally.

Example? Two words: Jonathan Pollard.

[Valhal]

Over the years the US has given Israel staggering amounts of aid. So we definitely consider them an important ally. But why is that? Not because of any cultural ties. If I my be non PC it is because it affords us a solid piece of ground in order to dominate the area if it comes down to that. The ME is of dire importance to the US and the world. We will never let the oil spigot be taken away from us. The Israelis make a perfect ally and supporting them like we do is very Machiavellian.
That's my attempt to distill the pure grain from the BS. The only credentials I have is that I kick ass at RISK.

Lets not keep score but lets just say that both sides have killed innocent lives quite frequently.

As for the Media, I guess it depends where you get your info. And I agree RL I don't know what to make out of Chomsky but he is passionate about this issue. I wish I was more erudite and had the time to look at both sides in depth.

There have been numerous UN resolutions demanding that Israel go back to the 1967 borders and stop setting up colonies within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Only 2 votes opposed the resolutions. Can you guess who?

The Arab world sees that the US is acting hypocritically. Much of the bad sentiments they feel towards us has to do with the way we handle the Israeli Palestinian issue. Very one sided.

I honestly look at the world today and see two sides galvanizing against each other, a clash of civilizations. If we are really interested in finding a path out of decades of confrontation then yes we need to change some policies.

And just so you know, if and when the time comes I'll be there right beside my fellow American soldiers. DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY. AMEN.