Operation Pillar of Cloud

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Pete

740 is a bunch of explosive rockets. Wonder how many of the countries bad mouthing Israel's reaction would act if somebody fired 740 rockets into their country?

The BBC has been slipping up recently. No – I don’t mean to refer to unpleasant recollections of Savilegate and McAlpinegate. Let us just leave them conveniently on the Corporation’s CV. Instead I am wondering why it took the BBC so long to get into its full propaganda mode in its reporting of the war between Israel and Hamas.
...
By contrast, Hamas deliberately targets innocent women and children in Israel. That is the sole purpose of their rocket attacks. Let me spell it out: what terrorists do is propagate terror.

Article, and the comments run the gamut.

[Blackrambo]

I personally don't care for Israel. They should defend themselves and if they get destroyed so be it. Would you SF guys fight side by side with Isaelites to defend their homeland the way you do in our current war? Or should I say it like this, how far will these conflicts have to escalate before U.S. forces intervened if we do?

[charlietwo]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I personally don't care for Israel. They should defend themselves and if they get destroyed so be it. Would you SF guys fight side by side with Isaelites to defend their homeland the way you do in our current war? Or should I say it like this, how far will these conflicts have to escalate before U.S. forces intervened if we do?

Whether US military personnel will fight alongside Israelis is solely dependent on the current administration and the DoD. There may very well be covert support, but any overt, on-the-ground personnel support of Israel if things get really bad seems highly unlikely under the Obama administration.

If Israel is destroyed, that would be a good thing in your mind? Would any evidence sway your opinion into the "I don't want to see Israel destroyed" category? Or is that set in stone?

Be sure to consider what sort of power vacuum would be created if Israel WERE destroyed. Also, consider the second and third order effects of that situation. IMHO, it would lead to bad things at home and abroad and I don't desire seeing any of those dominoes falling.

You root for Israel's enemies at your own peril, but you are afforded that freedom.

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I personally don't care for Israel.

Please elaborate. Is your problem with Israel or Jews?

[TacOfficer]

Indiscriminately lobbing hundreds of unguided rockets at a civilian population without regard in my opinion does not have the keeping of a legitimate government It doesn't bode well for the people that live within Gaza when they support terrorist regimes.

My sympathies for them evaporated when they voted Hamas and Hezbollah into power.

[mark46th]

In 1973 I was in SE Asia. My team was alerted to go to Israel at the start of the Yom Kippur war. I would have gone gladly and served proudly with the IDF...

[Blackrambo]

Originally Posted by SF-TX

Please elaborate. Is your problem with Israel or Jews?

I think they have too much influence over our politics and I can't fathom why. I don't understand why they are so important to our society. I dont hate Jewish people, I just dont understand why we protect them.

[BrokenSwitch]

More updates - the blogger lives in or near Jerusalem and he reports on the rocket launches and sirens across the country. Here are his feeds:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Muqata
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/Muqata
Blog: http://muqata.blogspot.co.il/


From my end... lots of helicopters flying south in the last 48 hours, especially CH-53s. They're a beautiful sight, flying at rooftop level.

Between Muqata and my friends elsewhere in Israel, I'm hearing that there's rioting and rock attacks (read: rocks, molotov cocktails, etc) in Shechem and Hevron and along some of the main roads in the Yehuda/Shomron region ("West Bank" in the diplomatic vernacular). Despite Hamas sympathies, I don't see this turning into any kind of campaign against the PA; I hope it does not turn into a second front for Israel.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I personally don't care for Israel. They should defend themselves and if they get destroyed so be it. Would you SF guys fight side by side with Isaelites to defend their homeland the way you do in our current war? Or should I say it like this, how far will these conflicts have to escalate before U.S. forces intervened if we do?

First, tell me what are the Palestinians shooting at?

Then what are the Israelis firing on?

That should answer the question for anyone with the intelligence to read.

TR

[Ape Man]

Slightly off topic but a response to blackrambo:

The idea that Israel has out sized influence over America politics is an idea that is rarely rationally considered by those that advance it. Most people who advance the idea ignore the history of American/Israeli relations and so they advance a theory that can not explain the known facts .

In brief, America supplied very little in the way of arms and ammunition up until just before the Yom Kippur war. Before the Yom Kippur war, the US was very sparse in its military aid and such aid that was given mostly came from Democratic politicians. After the Yom Kippur war, military aid shot into stratospheric heights from which it never came down. And this support started under the most anti-Semitic President the US has ever had and has continued with every President regardless of party.

Why the sudden change? Jews suddenly take over America? Americans suddenly felt more positively about Israel in the past? No evidence for this position. Americans suddenly more worrying about Israel future. No evidence for this either.

In my opinion the answer is more prosaic. American military aid closely tracks the best estimates of Israel developing the bomb. The Yom Kippur war is the first war in which we have circumstantial evidence that Israel may have thought about turning Arab cities into glass. Since then, I think that America has made the decision to insure that Israel feels very secure in its conventional arms and so does not get tempted to resort to its unconventional arms.

In other words, I think American Jews have very little to do with America's policy towards Israel and the fear of lots of sand being turned into glass has a lot to do with America's policy towards Israel. As Aerial Sharon was reputed to have said, "The Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I think they have too much influence over our politics and I can't fathom why. I don't understand why they are so important to our society. I dont hate Jewish people, I just dont understand why we protect them.

1. How do you pick your friends?

2. How do you pick who you protect?

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Ape Man

Americans suddenly more worrying about Israel future. No evidence for this either.

Are you discounting any American altruism following the YK war? That is, there was really no interest in seeing a small country of free people remain so, though they be surrounded by despots who wish to wipe them off the face of the Earth? Is it altruistic if the goal is to avoid a nuclear exchange, or just another American impure motive?

[Ape Man]

Originally Posted by Badger52

Are you discounting any American altruism following the YK war? That is, there was really no interest in seeing a small country of free people remain so, though they be surrounded by despots who wish to wipe them off the face of the Earth? Is it altruistic if the goal is to avoid a nuclear exchange, or just another American impure motive?

Badger,

There have always been people in America that supported Israel. There have always been people who have been less than supportive of Israel. What changed all of the sudden during the Yom Kippur war? And why did America not support Israel during previous wars? I may be misreading you, but you come across as someone who believes that America's support for Israel was there right from the very beginning. This was not the case.

I think if you read enough American history you will find that American politicians can be very cynical when it comes to dealing with even their closest allies. Margret Thacher found this out the hard way when she had her little problem in South America.

That said, I don't know for sure why things changed any more than the next guy. All I know is that there is a reasons why America might have chosen to suddenly change policy towards arming Israel. Whether it was "the" reason is something I am not going to get to dogmatic about. However, I did develop (and support) that argument that it was the bomb a little more fully here http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofs...ar-of-matches/.

[MR2]

Originally Posted by Ape Man

I may be misreading you, but you come across as someone who believes that America's support for Israel was there right from the very beginning. This was not the case.

Please explain why "this was not the case" and please source that.

Originally Posted by Ape Man

I think if you read enough American history you will find that American politicians can be very cynical when it comes to dealing with even their closest allies. Margret Thacher found this out the hard way when she had her little problem in South America.

Please explain why/how Margret Thacher found out "that American politicians can be very cynical when it comes to dealing with even their closest allies" and please source that as well.

Thank you.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I think they have too much influence over our politics and I can't fathom why. I don't understand why they are so important to our society. I dont hate Jewish people, I just dont understand why we protect them.

What is your evidence that "they" have "too much influence over our politics?" (Who are "they," what is the nature of their influence, how do they get it?)

When you have a moment, I am hoping that you'll explain how your line of thinking makes the transition from taking issue with U.S. policy towards Israel to talking about how you don't hate Jews and how they've somehow not made important contributions to Western Civilization in general and our society in particular.

FWIW, while I'm not a big believer in the lessons of history, I do think that the military history of the Western world provides plenty of examples of what has happened when factors like racial and ethnic identity, religious belief, and nationalism have figured prominently in the causes of war.