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Old 07-27-2012, 07:34   #1
Richard
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Snapshots Of An Intervention: Unlearned Lessons Of A'stan Assistance

An interesting read from the AAN.

The Afghanistan Analysts Network (AAN) is a non-profit, independent policy research organisation. It aims to bring together the knowledge, experience and drive of a large number of experts to better inform policy and to increase the understanding of Afghan realities. It is driven by engagement and curiosity and is committed to producing independent, high quality and research-based analysis on developments in Afghanistan.

The institutional structure of AAN includes a core team of analysts and a network of contributors with expertise in the fields of Afghan politics, governance, rule of law, security, and regional affairs. AAN publishes regular in-depth thematic reports, policy briefings and comments.


And so it goes...

Richard


Snapshots Of An Intervention: The Unlearned Lessons of Afghanistan's Decade of Assistance (2001-11)
Afghanistan Analysts Network (AAN), Kabul, Afghanistan

http://aan-afghanistan.com/uploads/2...tervention.pdf
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:17   #2
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The authors have fallen victims to what they are criticizing- Unrealistic expectations as to where Afghan Political change and Culture should be after the effort of the last 11 years. They grudgingly admitted that the small changes achieved are better than nothing but expect more after 11 years of funds and effort. As I have stated before, to change a culture that has been stagnant for 3000 years, it is going to take a multigenerational effort to move ALL the Afghans into the modern age. Plus we have to eliminate the Taliban.

Last edited by mark46th; 07-28-2012 at 18:16.
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:39   #3
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The authors have fallen victims to what they are criticizing- Unrealistic expectations as to where Afghan Political and Cultural should be after the effort of the last 11 years. They grudgingly admitted that the small changes achieved are better than better than nothing but expect more after 11 years of funds and effort. As I have stated before, to change a culture that has been stagnant for 3000 years, it is going to take a multigenerational effort to move ALL the Afghans into the modern age. Plus we have to eliminate the Taliban.
And a lot of luck...

The happenstance of raising and educating a new whole generation that is willing to "stay on the farm" and develop this NEW country, will take all the positive chaos and karma of several lucky generations of parents.

Between the TB and other extremist groups in the region??

Vegas odds are not good...
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:39   #4
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I do wish people would think about how long it took the US to make this experiment in freedom work. A lot longer than 11 or 12 years.
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:31   #5
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But when a people, a culture finally grasps the concept of freedom... boy howdy watch it take off!
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:00   #6
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But when a people, a culture finally grasps the concept of freedom... boy howdy watch it take off!
I've always believed that too; unfortunately, as I look around the world today I see a general decrease in individual freedom and an increase in totalitarianism. It seems as though true freedom is an uncomfortable responsibility that a significant percentage of humanity cannot manage so they create governments to regulate it and make it more "comfortable" for those who are threatened by the implications. (And by the success of those who can function in an environment of personal responsibility and achievement.) Even our own experiment in freedom is currently imperilled by the rise of the dependant classes who want government to manage everything to ensure their own comfort.

I wish Afghanistan good fortune as they negotiate the minefields looking for a balance point between security and freedom. Sadly, I'm not sure they'll have the time given that our "helping hand" will be withdrawn at some point; probably relatively soon and almost certainly before they've matured enough to control the genuine cleptocracy that has flourished throughout their history. We didn't start from as disadvantaged a position (Islam plus tribes plus bandit/warlord leadership - what a petri dish for a culture to grow out of ) and as LR 1945 pointed out, our successes didn't happen overnight (and are as susceptable to attack and decline as everyone else's).
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:57   #7
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I've always believed that too; unfortunately, as I look around the world today I see a general decrease in individual freedom and an increase in totalitarianism. It seems as though true freedom is an uncomfortable responsibility that a significant percentage of humanity cannot manage so they create governments to regulate it and make it more "comfortable" for those who are threatened by the implications. (And by the success of those who can function in an environment of personal responsibility and achievement.) Even our own experiment in freedom is currently imperilled by the rise of the dependant classes who want government to manage everything to ensure their own comfort.
Well said Peregrino and I agree. Our culture has changed and it has taken years of negligence to achieve that change. I hope that we as a society can realize that and renew that concept without resorting to revolution.

Who was it who said the tree of liberty requires the blood of patriots to sustain it? Maybe we've been shedding blood for the wrong reasons these past few decades...
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Old 07-28-2012, 13:36   #8
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I've always believed that too; unfortunately, as I look around the world today I see a general decrease in individual freedom and an increase in totalitarianism. .
I think you are looking at this through a too-narrow prism. I would opine that, although worldwide freedoms rise and ebb, the world today is more free than ever. One just needs look at this from a long-history viewpoint.

Example, pan back to the cold war era, and look at the Warsaw Pact countries. Approximately 1/2 of Europe lived under a pretty brutal form of government. Today, most of those countries live in a, relatively speaking, improved state. Poland, the Czechs, Ukrainians, Romania, etc. I think that living in East Germany with the Stazi running around would have been less than cool.

Pan back a little more, to WWII days. The Germans had put much of Europe under the Nazi boot, Stalin killed millions of his own people, Japan lived under the rule of the Emperor.

I would argue that, prior to the rise of the United States (or the Enlightenment, depending on your point of view), the thought of people actually governing themselves was laughable around the world. Few are the examples of representative government throughout history.

This doesn't mean that people can avoid being vigilant to maintain their democracy. In fact, people in a democracy must work hard to maintain their freedoms, as opposed to folks being essentially cattle under any other form of government.

One advantage that we have today, in the context of protecting freedoms, is mass high speed media. In most places in the world, the world knows immediately when governments crack down on their people. This is a pretty good deal. When the Russian army stomps through Georgia, or another Muslim ruler jails or beheads a Christian, it becomes news pretty fast.
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Old 07-28-2012, 14:39   #9
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I think you are looking at this through a too-narrow prism. I would opine that, although worldwide freedoms rise and ebb, the world today is more free than ever. One just needs look at this from a long-history viewpoint.
Sir, supporting your evaluation is the trend of the Freedom Status table as reported by freedomhouse.org here.
It seems to be a very gradual transition, and while the past 3 years have been an ebb in the wrong direction the overall trend is favorable.
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Old 07-28-2012, 15:21   #10
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Originally Posted by craigepo View Post
I think you are looking at this through a too-narrow prism. I would opine that, although worldwide freedoms rise and ebb, the world today is more free than ever. One just needs look at this from a long-history viewpoint.

Example, pan back to the cold war era, and look at the Warsaw Pact countries. Approximately 1/2 of Europe lived under a pretty brutal form of government. Today, most of those countries live in a, relatively speaking, improved state. Poland, the Czechs, Ukrainians, Romania, etc. I think that living in East Germany with the Stazi running around would have been less than cool.

Pan back a little more, to WWII days. The Germans had put much of Europe under the Nazi boot, Stalin killed millions of his own people, Japan lived under the rule of the Emperor.

I would argue that, prior to the rise of the United States (or the Enlightenment, depending on your point of view), the thought of people actually governing themselves was laughable around the world. Few are the examples of representative government throughout history.

This doesn't mean that people can avoid being vigilant to maintain their democracy. In fact, people in a democracy must work hard to maintain their freedoms, as opposed to folks being essentially cattle under any other form of government.

One advantage that we have today, in the context of protecting freedoms, is mass high speed media. In most places in the world, the world knows immediately when governments crack down on their people. This is a pretty good deal. When the Russian army stomps through Georgia, or another Muslim ruler jails or beheads a Christian, it becomes news pretty fast.
I agree with your statement and feel that the lack of freedom felt by some here is due to the "needy" voting in enablers that take freedom in the name of social engineering. This can be, and I feel will be, reversed once more of the so called "masses" realize the true damage being done by taking from those that have and giving to those who sit on their butts.
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Old 07-29-2012, 08:18   #11
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petri dish for culture to grow out of, A cesspool?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigepo View Post
I think you are looking at this through a too-narrow prism. I would opine that, although worldwide freedoms rise and ebb, the world today is more free than ever. One just needs look at this from a long-history viewpoint.

Example, pan back to the cold war era, and look at the Warsaw Pact countries. Approximately 1/2 of Europe lived under a pretty brutal form of government. Today, most of those countries live in a, relatively speaking, improved state. Poland, the Czechs, Ukrainians, Romania, etc. I think that living in East Germany with the Stazi running around would have been less than cool.

Pan back a little more, to WWII days. The Germans had put much of Europe under the Nazi boot, Stalin killed millions of his own people, Japan lived under the rule of the Emperor.

I would argue that, prior to the rise of the United States (or the Enlightenment, depending on your point of view), the thought of people actually governing themselves was laughable around the world. Few are the examples of representative government throughout history.

This doesn't mean that people can avoid being vigilant to maintain their democracy. In fact, people in a democracy must work hard to maintain their freedoms, as opposed to folks being essentially cattle under any other form of government.

One advantage that we have today, in the context of protecting freedoms, is mass high speed media. In most places in the world, the world knows immediately when governments crack down on their people. This is a pretty good deal. When the Russian army stomps through Georgia, or another Muslim ruler jails or beheads a Christian, it becomes news pretty fast.
very well said Sir, I agree. the other sad fact is how many westerners, Americans specifically I think everything should happen now or a few years. This on demand society we have thanks everything should a been worked out in Bosnia in Kosovo in South America within 5 to 10 years. the other factor is a military, seems like some military leaders think that they're so much corruption in these foreign countries. that they will never learn, never stop embezzling or stealing. wow our own government does the same thing, we just have laws.

Afghanistan is a cesspool and will never change in 10 or 20 years. if we could set up schools in educated people, start teaching them how to really farm and not be survival farmers. things may be a little different right now in the rule village areas. This report this just a means to an end to the right. Just like every pointed report coming out now, they pushed to what they want. One problem is is that Afghans don't want to move into the modern age. that was leader of village farmer at village person likes being village man. Living, cooking, farming just as his father and grandfather are still probably doing or have done. they have their freedom, their livelihood that's all they want. Be it the Taliban, AQ, Americans, Coalitions that come in the area; they only care for the time being that they're there. The villager knows that that person, that group, those people*will*eventually leave in time. The freedom they lost or gained will change once those people go away. This is the afghan way and I would say this is the afghan freedom.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:59   #12
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Be it the Taliban, AQ, Americans, Coalitions that come in the area; they only care for the time being that they're there. The villager knows that that person, that group, those people*will*eventually leave in time. The freedom they lost or gained will change once those people go away. This is the afghan way and I would say this is the afghan freedom.
That is profound. Thanks for your insight. If I understand you correctly, you are saying those brief periods in-between invaders are the free times they live for.

I think we can ask the Tibetans how well that worked out for them. Eventually someone more powerful comes along and doesn't leave. They may or may not be benevolent, but at that point the choice will not be yours.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:30   #13
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I think we can ask the Tibetans how well that worked out for them. Eventually someone more powerful comes along and doesn't leave. They may or may not be benevolent, but at that point the choice will not be yours.
Profound as well!
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Old 07-29-2012, 13:56   #14
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The authors have fallen victims to what they are criticizing- Unrealistic expectations as to where Afghan Political change and Culture should be after the effort of the last 11 years. They grudgingly admitted that the small changes achieved are better than nothing but expect more after 11 years of funds and effort. As I have stated before, to change a culture that has been stagnant for 3000 years, it is going to take a multigenerational effort to move ALL the Afghans into the modern age. Plus we have to eliminate the Taliban.
Actually you'd have to eliminate most of the Afghans...
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Old 07-29-2012, 15:11   #15
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Actually you'd have to eliminate most of the Afghans...
Exactly.

The Taliban are Afghans and you are not going to eliminate them (or even change them much) without creating lots of new opponents/rivals.

We can leave them with an opposition that can counterbalance their influence and keep them from taking over the country again, IF they choose to.

TR
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