Eric Haney on Schools as Targets

[skibum]

Why did it go like it did? Training, I guess. At the time (I assume, I joined the dept two years after it happened) the prevailing thought was to treat it like a hostage-taking. Establish a perimeter and wait for SWAT.

I watched it on the news that day and couldn't belive what I was seeing. I couldn't understand why a bunch of cops weren't rushing the place to go kill the bad guys. I remember watching a SWAT stack advancing slowly behind a ballistic shield across a lawn to one of the doors. What were they thinking? That if they snuck up, someone looking out the window couldn't see them? That they were at less risk if they moved across that danger area slowly instesd of tactically?(of course, as a product of their training, that WAS tactical movement. To them)

There is quite a culture of denial here regarding Columbine, it's very difficult to get useful lessons learned. There's also the, "you weren't there, you can't point fingers," mentality. I gotta call BS on that -- Everybody else seems to have learned something from our mistakes. I mean, we don't run football practice on blazing September days while denying our athletes water anymore (when I was in grade school a HS athlete died of dehydration/heat stroke because the coach thought you had to practice without water to get tough).

Yes, there was talk of implementing a CQB program for all deputies about two years ago, the same time frame that we were trying to get on board with "this Homeland Security thing." One of the training deputies, a former Recon guy has been pounding his head against a wall to try getting it started. He has met resistance from all levels of command (except maybe the Sheriff and UnderSheriff). I fire off memos and am told I don't know what I am talking about on a fairly regular basis. The struggle goes on...

[wfraser]

Working on the local SWAT/SRT team one of the main things we have focused on is schools. Why? Schools are the heart of the community....not Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot. When kids are envolved Americans tend to loose their minds. We run one senario after another on schools and we practice different entries. A school taken hostage is one of the worst things that can happen in a community. One of our questions we ask ourself is do we do a dynamic entry or not? You guys who have done CQC what is your opinon. My thoughts were suprise, speed and violence. The only problem I have is that our target idenfication may be on the slow side. We don't need any SWAT guys popping the wrong kids. Anyone know some drills that could help this. We have a guy from the 10th group coming in October who is suppose to hit on this subject. Is he going to be able to help with this? LATER.

[The Reaper]

Read up on Beslan.

Anything you get that does not involve a WMD is bound to be easier than that.

The failure by the SRO at Columbine to take the fight to the bad guys and the decision to wait for everyone to set up for a Slow and Deliberate clear cost several victims their lives there.

IMHO, better to take a round from a threat than to pop a kid by accident (or to let one bleed out). ID and determine threat level before engaging. Make lots of Sims training events and liberally use no shoot role players when the school is available for training.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Try to use kids in your Sims scenarios for your no shoot and shoot targets. Las Vegas Metro SWAT did a huge active shooter training a couple of years ago and it encompased an entire junior high and high school to include hundreds of kids, teachers, and administrators. Done in the middle of the day. I have no idea how they accomplished it but you may want to get in touch with them and see how they did it.

[Ryval]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Unlike SGM Haney I don’t think teaching LEO’s “how to kill” is the answer. It would not come off well with the other 99% of their everyday line of work. You would end up with a very aggressive police force and one the “people” would not want “protecting” them.

TS

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

It seems to me that this is an old post that has been brought up again.

In reviewing the past post's I see many views on civilian LE response Vs Military response to a school situation like happened in Russia.

Keep in mind that I'm a former SWAT Team Commander and SF.

Firstly, local law enforcement is going to be the first agency to respond to any incident, within it's jurisdiction. The first responders will normally be patrol units.

Since Columbine, LE tactics and training have been reviewed and changed to avoid many of the mistakes, made at Columbine and other, situations like it. The biggest change is they are not going to standby and wait for SWAT, if killing is taking place.

Most LE Officers are now armed with a patrol carbine and/or rifle. They are trained to form teams and take action where there is need for it. The need would be where the suspects were shooting people, etc.

There would also be a call for a SWAT team to respond. A very few local LE agencies have a full time SWAT team on call. It will take at least an hour or more for the teams arrival and then time to brief them, etc.

Most local SWAT teams have worked with local schools, during their training on hostage situations, floor plans on file, etc. Most are well trained and armed. Most large departments also have a bomb disposal unit that would also respond if explosives were found to be involved in the incident.

In a situation like experienced in Russia, hopefully the responding LE Supervisor first on such a scene, especially where explosives were involved, would take no action unless the hostage takers were shooting hostages, etc. He would form a perimeter and wait for the SWAT team, hostage negotiators and other department resources to arrive to include department's command staff.

The departments command staff would make any decisions on the need for help from other jurisdictions up to federal. (FBI) If the situation was determined to be within the jurisdiction of the FBI (Federal case) the command of the incident would be turned over to the FBI. The FBI would then decide if the HRT and/or Military units would respond and how they would be used. This of course all takes many hours of vital time in a case like the Russian incident.

What is the nearest Delta unit to say Seattle? IMHO, Delta is the only military unit, the should handle an incident like the Russian one. Yes, we have the 1st SFGA here in the area as well as the 2nd Ranger BN; however, I doubt on short notice in particular, that they have people, training and equipment on hand that would allow them to respond and handle a situation like the Russian school.

The bottom line? IMHO, like it or not the local LE is going to have to handle the brunt of any such incident, especially where the hostage takers are killing people! This may result in heavy losses in both responding LE and hostages, if they take immeadite action. This would be true of any group taking immeadite action.

At least one or more LE agency in each State, should have a SWAT team that have the training and equipment, to handle a situation like we are talking about. They should have the capability to handle the situation, until Federal help, of any kind if needed arrives.

The office of Homeland security should provide local LE with funding, training and equipment to such local teams, perhaps even certifying the teams, much like the FBI does with individual bomb technicians now.

There is no doubt in my mind that Delta would be the best answer to a situation like they had in Russia. The fact is; however, that in the USA it's going to be local LE that responds to any incident.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Ryval

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.

You lost me right there with blackwater.....training people to shoot unarmed civilinas.......sorry charlie, we don't shoot dozens of unarmed civilians and we don't train people to do so.

You need to read more before you start posting in regards to LEO's and Special Operations. We are not the same animal, we will never be the same and we have two different jobs.

Unless you've been trained for war, by warriors, you are not a warrior, period. If you think by having some former felon cop blowing smoke up your ass that you are in fact a warrior" fine, so be it, let me know when you're ready to infiltrate the Tora Bora area and we'll hook you up with 300rds of ammo, one week of rations, six other guys and your mission will be to locate and engage some 50-300 terrorists.

Did I include the fact that if you are spotted you will be engaged (this is a "denied" area) and if engaged during daylight hours you and your team are on their own until dark as we're not going to risk platforms and people to get your ass out of hot water until night fall. Oh, you can surrender to the enemy but you might have forgotten that there is a bounty on your head because you and your Special Operations buddies have already killed hundreds of terrorists, face to face and their kinda pissed so after they torture you they will then send a picture your severed head, with your penis in your mouth to the local media for the world to see.

And freddy, you're there for a year so consider this mission time and time again over the next few years.

Spare me your "killing" and "warrior" mindset.


Team Sergeant

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

I agree with you that the role of LE and Special Operations soldiers on active duty are different.

That said, most LE SWAT teams have many former SEALs, Special Forces, Rangers and other Special Operations people on them.

As the SWAT supervisor of my former SWAT team, I had control of who was picked for the team.

I always looked for and picked former Special Operations people first, followed by former Marines, Army Infantry types and last Navy. (Prior military service, was important thing to me.) Combat experience was an added bonus as well.

I think most LE SWAT supervisors try to pick the same type of people that I have outlined as well. On my team, I did have former SF, SEALs, Rangers and USMC Recon. Some were retired from the service with many years of experience in their special Operations units, most with combat experience in various wars, etc.

As of just lately one of the members of my former SWAT team is serving in Iraq, as a SEAL Officer, having been called up in the Navy reserve. I think he has had tours of duty both in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to this tour. There are also many other National Guard (19th SFGA) and Reserve people on the team, that have been called to active duty and served in combat in both places.

So, there is in a lot of cases, fresh combat experience as well as expertise in Special Operations skills within many LE SWAT Teams.

There are Warriors on some, if not most of LE SWAT teams!

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Trip_Wire

TS:

I agree with you that the role of LE and Special Operations soldiers on active duty are different.

That said, most LE SWAT teams have many former SEALs, Special Forces, Rangers and other Special Operations people on them.

As the SWAT supervisor of my former SWAT team, I had control of who was picked for the team.

I always looked for and picked former Special Operations people first, followed by former Marines, Army Infantry types and last Navy. (Prior military service, was important thing to me.) Combat experience was an added bonus as well.

I think most LE SWAT supervisors try to pick the same type of people that I have outlined as well. On my team, I did have former SF, SEALs, Rangers and USMC Recon. Some were retired from the service with many years of experience in their special Operations units, most with combat experience in various wars, etc.

As of just lately one of the members of my former SWAT team is serving in Iraq, as a SEAL Officer, having been called up in the Navy reserve. I think he has had tours of duty both in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to this tour. There are also many other National Guard (19th SFGA) and Reserve people on the team, that have been called to active duty and served in combat in both places.

So, there is in a lot of cases, fresh combat experience as well as expertise in Special Operations skills within many LE SWAT Teams.

There are Warriors on some, if not most of LE SWAT teams!

I agree with you, but for those that have only attended a "blackwater" two week course conferring a title of warrior or establishing a warrior mindset is not going to happen.

(I'm not talking about those that have served as a "real" warrior and decided to became an LEO..... )

I figured next thing Ryval was going to tell me is that he attended the "Surefire Institute" taught by "Special Operations TRAINER" doug martin and is now a "master flashlight fighter"

Did I mention Ambush Master and I ran into Paul Howe at Shot Show? Paul gave me a "new" M-4 rear sight he's been working on.....

Ryval, go and take a class from Paul Howe and tell us how it compares to the blackwater training....


TS

[Ryval]

Team Sgt. I appoligize. I did not mean to offend anyone and I am sorry that I have.
(Open mouth, insert foot, chew well).

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

TS:

Quite right TS, I agree such courses do not make a Warrior or Special Ops., operator. I was just sort of trying to defend those LE people, particularly SWAT team members and the LE first responders, who are going to be the first to respond to such situations here in the USA and have to deal with what they find there.

Sooner or later, I'm pretty sure we will have a major incident from the terrorists. Perhaps at a school; however, IMHO it's more likely to occur at a large shopping mall, large airport or large office building in a major city like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.

Actually, I'm surprised that we haven't seen the use of suicide bombers here in the USA. There are plenty of excellent targets for them here. Here in Seattle a car bombing on a ferry or one of our two floating bridges at the rush hour, would be a real disaster.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Trip_Wire

Sooner or later, I'm pretty sure we will have a major incident from the terrorists. Perhaps at a school; however, IMHO it's more likely to occur at a large shopping mall, large airport or large office building in a major city like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.

I agree and then (and only then) will the LEO's want our method of dealing with terrorists.... until then, go see that big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......

Call me when you've had enough... or go and take Paul Howe's or Dave Harringtons classes.

TS

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

I agree and then (and only then) will the LEO's want our method of dealing with terrorists.... until then, go see that big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......

Call me when you've had enough... or go and take Paul Howe's or Dave Harringtons classes.

TS

There you go TS, painting all LEO's with the same brush. Yes, I'm sure the the LEO range Sgt. you describe exists somewhere in this Country.

On the other hand, there are many departments that practice very good training and tactics and have the appropriate modern firearms training in place. Many use the same civilian people who train SEALs and Delta people in CQC.

Don't you think that the people whom I mentioned in my last message, SEALs, SF people and others who have been called to active duty and served in combat, etc. from their LE jobs are not going to know how to deal with terrorists?

I'll admit that many LE departments in the US, fit into what you describe; however, there are many that don't. Some might just surprise you, with their proficiency in both firearms training and tactics to deal with terrorist activities. Of course any type of basic firearms training, even from "a big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......" is better then no training!

I wasn't really impressed with the level of firearms training I got in the military, especially the pistol training. As well as annual military qualification courses.

Of course, both the armed forces and LE suffer from the PC view of a lot of the people at the higher levels and the media. A good example is the attempt to court-martial some SF people for killing a terrorist in the 'Stan.

IMHO they did a great job. I have always been of the mind that taking terrorist prisoners, except for Intel, is the wrong thing to do. They are not going to change their goals and will only come back to be a problem for you again, one way or the other.


I think both the SAS and GSG-9 have the right idea on dealing with terrorists.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Trip_Wire

There you go TS, painting all LEO's with the same brush. Yes, I'm sure the the LEO range Sgt. you describe exists somewhere in this Country.

On the other hand, there are many departments that practice very good training and tactics and have the appropriate modern firearms training in place. Many use the same civilian people who train SEALs and Delta people in CQC.

Don't you think that the people whom I mentioned in my last message, SEALs, SF people and others who have been called to active duty and served in combat, etc. from their LE jobs are not going to know how to deal with terrorists?

I'll admit that many LE departments in the US, fit into what you describe; however, there are many that don't. Some might just surprise you, with their proficiency in both firearms training and tactics to deal with terrorist activities. Of course any type of basic firearms training, even from "a big coffee drinking 350 lb range sergeant thats been teaching the same shooting style for the last 44 years......" is better then no training!

I wasn't really impressed with the level of firearms training I got in the military, especially the pistol training. As well as annual military qualification courses.

Of course, both the armed forces and LE suffer from the PC view of a lot of the people at the higher levels and the media. A good example is the attempt to court-martial some SF people for killing a terrorist in the 'Stan.

IMHO they did a great job. I have always been of the mind that taking terrorist prisoners, except for Intel, is the wrong thing to do. They are not going to change their goals and will only come back to be a problem for you again, one way or the other.


I think both the SAS and GSG-9 have the right idea on dealing with terrorists.

Actually I've seen that fat range Sgt, teaching 40 y/o techniques at more than one LEO range.

Can the SF'ers and SEALS deal with terrorists, I doubt it with current LEO ROE.

We've already seen first hand what two bank robbers can do to 100 of Americas finest, the LAPD. I've no doubt what 5-10 armed terrorists will do if and when it happens, no doubt at all.

TS

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ryval

First off, I know these posts are years old but it's my first time reading them. I am not trying to 'flame' anyone, but some aspects of L.E. was brought up that I feel my .02 might be an informative, or merely entertaining, read.

Secondly, Team Sgt. I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. I believe teaching LEO to kill more effectively is something that needs to be done. As one of our instructors put it, "We don't like it, but we better be damn good at it." I, personally, don't see how it would conflict with what we're already learning. Many of us would prefer more often, much better technique, and better, more expereinced instructors. As for the public, few honor us, some respect us, most tollorate us and many hate us. My belief is they'll think what they think, we'll do what we have to do.

On another note, I've read a few posts that either directly state or imply that LEO's do not have a warrior mindset or are not warriors. I'd also like to respectfully disagree. I believe the percentage is MUCH less than military, especially elite groups such as yourselves, however, the percentage is there. While I do not believe the skill level compares, at all, to someone in SF, I do believe the mindset is there. I know LEO's who spend their own money, time and resources to attended training through facilities like Blackwater or Trident Concepts. I see LEO's spend their own money / time to come into work early to train shooting while moving, failure drills, multiple advisaries, fail-safe groupings etc. I have had long conversations with LEO's who go out of their way to study the warriors of old, and modern, to gleen more information feed the ethos. I know LEO's that will respond, alone if that's all there is, to a Beslan style situation. Granted those are usually the same few officers.

For some of the situations listed above involving LEO's failing to neutralize threats, every one of them, IMHO, is a training issue, or lack there of, rather than a mindset issue.

I appoligize if I have offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes. I have great respect for all the warriors on this forum and did not intend any of the above to be insulting or derogitory.

Thank you for allowing me to post my opinion. I will remove it if requested.

Hey, just out of curiosity, what did the "warrior" SRO at Columbine do when confronted by two punks with a few small arms and no formal training?

TR