04-02-2004, 16:06
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#46
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
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Cuncur. A move would be in order.
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Surgicalcric is offline
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04-02-2004, 16:17
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#47
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,938
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As I noted in regard to the upcoming anniversary, events in Fallujah should not be viewed in a vacuum. One reason for not going in until all the pieces are in place is to not have a repeat of April 2003, when a small number of paratroopers found themselves facing a large mob, and had neither the preparation or the resources to separate the agitators from the crowd.
Another thing to keep in mind when planning how to deal with the city: while our overall strategy for Iraq has been to try to make the various factions in the country - Sunni and Shi'ite Arab, Kurd, Turkmen, etc. - act like happy campers to each other, in this region we should be developing the intel and resources to play the Sunni tribes against each other. Saddam and the Ba'ath favored the Sunnis over other Iraqis, but within Sunni-land, they favored certain tribes, such as Saddam's own Tikritis, over others. There are bound to be plenty of Sunni Arabs looking for a little payback too.
The Rawi clan, for example, may have been Ba'athists and dislike Americans (Gen. Sayfuddin Fulayyih Hassan Taha ar-Rawi was the Jack of Clubs), but they hate the Tikritis. Within the Tikritis also were clans out of Saddam's favor at various times who may have scores to settle. In both the short and the long run, these rivalries may be worth taking advantage of (they also played a role in Saddam's betrayal and capture).
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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04-02-2004, 16:32
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#48
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Texas
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I could see the value of the "play the tribes off against one another" approach if we were in a position of weakness. As it is, I don't see why a more assertive, martial approach along the lines of how they pacified Axis cities in WWII wouldn't work better.
Playing the tribes against one another would only seem to reinforce tribalism, which I think is part of the problem, and would probably involve pragmatic concessions to set these groups up against one another we may come to regret later.
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El Diablo sabe mas por viejo que por diablo.
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D9 (RIP) is offline
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04-02-2004, 16:39
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#49
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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IMH (and relatively uneducated) O, allowing tribes to attack each other without losing utter control of the area would be difficult, especially in an environment where families have traditional feuds (this is what I've heard, at least), and escalated tribal rivalries are likely to be passed down through the generations. It seems that a 'snowball effect' would occur.
IMO, at least.
Solid
EDITED- whoops! didn't see D9's post.
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Solid is offline
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04-02-2004, 16:54
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#50
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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I sort of disagree with you Solid. In that you could use the rivilary between tribes to your advantage but on a limited scale. Use the intel they provide to you about who did what, granted they may be lieing there asses off but collect humint from a couple different tribes. I bet collective you come up with a good list of "usual suspects" Granted its not concrete evidence but its a good place to start.
Combine that with knowing the people in the mobs were not trucked in (atleast not that I know of). So they most likely walked in. Now be reasonable about your distance in determining how far one could/would walk to be apart of this demonstration. Combine that with the rumors you collect from other tribes, and I'll bet a dollar to a dime that you come up with a great idea on where these little f*ckers hang out and or live. Then go in and mercilessly deliver the STICK. Then leave calling cards stating that if this shit happens again the retaliation will be worse. I.E. we will not only kill you but every member of your family.
Although the last part about killing there family would most likely be a lie.
Just my .02 cents
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Smokin Joe is offline
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04-02-2004, 17:21
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#51
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,938
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Here is an article from last July on the Iraqi Sunni Arab tribes and their loyalties: http://www.hnn.us/comments/14860.html I only gave it a cursory overview, but it appears to touch on a number of issues worth knowing in dealing with that region of Iraq. It does indicate that Fallujah is a stronghold of the Dulaym tribe. The 10 of clubs, Latif Nussayif al-Jasim ad-Dulaymi, captured last June, was from this tribe.
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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04-02-2004, 20:01
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#52
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Bladesmith to the Quiet Professionals
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oregon, Land of the Silver Grey Sunsets
Posts: 3,879
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Mobs
NDD, You are correct about Col. Applegate. If I learned anything from him it was that the study and control of mobs was a craft unto itself. The political implications always weighed heavy on the choice of action. I don't think human nature has changed much since the cold war days. That said, so far I read nothing here I disagree with. Remember, just a knifemaker here.
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Bill Harsey is offline
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04-02-2004, 20:46
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#53
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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Quote:
Remember, just a knifemaker here.
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That's akin to saying the Team Sergeant is "just" a competent pistol shot, The Reaper is "just" an SF Trooper, Longrange is "just" a marksman, Greenhat is "just" an oppressor of the proletariat, I am "just" a communis...WAIT!
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-02-2004, 21:22
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#54
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JAWBREAKER
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf coast
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
That's akin to saying the Team Sergeant is "just" a competent pistol shot, The Reaper is "just" an SF Trooper, Longrange is "just" a marksman, Greenhat is "just" an oppressor of the proletariat, I am "just" a communis...WAIT!
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LOL!
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Sacamuelas is offline
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04-03-2004, 03:42
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#55
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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Look! It's Sacamuelas trying to dance! LOL NDD
Smokin Joe: I didn't consider the use of tribal rivalries for intelligence. When it comes to creating 'regulated' small tribal wars, however, IMHO such wars would become difficult to control.
Solid
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Solid is offline
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04-03-2004, 07:44
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#56
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: OK. Thanking Our Brave Soldiers
Posts: 3,614
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Re: Fallujah
Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
[B...I would not be beyond using bait to get them to attempt the same action again, and then pile on.
I suspect that if you did that a couple of times, the number of people who would attempt the hit would drop through losses, and the groups who would mutilate the bodies would lean through Darwinian selection that it was not a smart thing to do.
How about a remotely controlled vehicle with an explosive payload? Sort of a "Q-Ship".
Just a thought.
TR [/B]
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Sir, I have a crazy idea, but it could work?
Just use me as bait!!! Hell, I'm single, lightweight, and will travel in full body paint!
Those Falluja pigs would never expect a devil possesed looking blonde woman to come screeching though their streets...just drop me out of a chopper, and once I get their attention, WHAM!
You Guys show up and blow them all back to the stoneage!
I am dead serious! If You need some unconventional bait, just let me know, and I will be there. The least a little civilian like me could do for what They did to Our own!
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echoes is offline
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04-05-2004, 21:11
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#57
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
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I had mentioned snipers but, I just heard from a man who had talked to troops in Iraq and who have returned from Iraq and he says that without a doubt, the one thing that will cause all Iraqi to shit their pants then drop everything and run is the M-1 Abrams.
Perhaps what they need is an armored company or larger to roll right through Fallujah. I haven't experienced it but apparently the fire power of the Abrahms is truly awsome.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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04-05-2004, 21:14
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#58
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Quiet Professional
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Location: LA
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In Panama, it was the AC 130. They begged us not to call the "infra-rojo". Of course they never saw an Abrams.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-06-2004, 03:48
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#59
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 995
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Listening to first-hand accounts of tanker experiences in the invasion of baghdad, tanks might have some difficulty operating within the city, even with Bradley and Infantry support. At least Fallujah is relatively squared, as opposed to the Mog's haphazard design.
Solid
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Solid is offline
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04-06-2004, 05:25
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#60
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
In Panama, it was the AC 130. They begged us not to call the "infra-rojo". Of course they never saw an Abrams.
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[SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1]
I guess I'm showing my FOGdom. The Panama riots I referred to occured in 1964.At that time I don't believe even "Piff the Magic Dragon" (AC-47) had been put into service,
As for haphazard street layout, the reason Europaen streets tend to be so crooked was to cut down on fields of fire.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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