08-15-2004, 13:21
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#1
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,767
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Let's talk about Secretary Rumsfeld
The following comments made me think this might be a good topic.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Moroney
I am sure that most folks have opinions on what comes out of the concrete sphincter concerning some of their assessments. Let me answer your question indirectly with an observation. What do you expect from an individual who wants to apply business practices as a guide line for warfighting? From my standpoint, which is probably irrelevant and immaterial, I have a master's in business and what works for managing the bottom line in turning a profit sure as hell doesn't equate when the measure of success is how much you can break or kill with products provided whose sole basis for successful measurement by business parameters are that they came from the lowest bidder and met the minimal acceptable level of performance.
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So, is Secretary Rumsfeld doing a good job or not? What are his strengths and weaknesses as SecDef in your view?
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-15-2004, 13:40
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#2
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Feb 2004
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My mother always told me that if I couldn't say anything nice, I shouldn't say anything at all.
I'm sure GEN Franks, GEN Shinseki and all those other 4-stars who didn't want to be Chief of Staff have an opinion, though - and are more free to express it.
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"Ignorantque datos, ne quisquam serviat, enses"
-Lucanus (A.D. 39-65), De Bello Civili
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Adam White is offline
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08-15-2004, 17:30
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#3
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Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
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There's something about him that rubs me the wrong way. I can't put my finger on what it is, though.
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"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
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Huey14 is offline
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08-15-2004, 17:32
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#4
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I like him. But what do I know?
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-15-2004, 17:45
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#5
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Quiet Professional
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Location: LA
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I like him too. Shinseki gave the legs a beret, I don't care what he thinks. General Schoomaker and General Boykin are willing to work for him, that's enough for me.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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08-15-2004, 17:50
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#6
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Consigliere
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
General Schoomaker and General Boykin are willing to work for him, that's enough for me.
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Do they really have a choice? Sure, they can retire, but I would think that when you get that far along, the brass ring is pretty tough to give up. I know it is in my world.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-15-2004, 18:33
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#7
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Do they really have a choice? Sure, they can retire, but I would think that when you get that far along, the brass ring is pretty tough to give up. I know it is in my world.
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GEN Schoomaker was already retired and came back onto AD to work for him.
LTG Boykin could have retired easily from his previous job, had he not wanted to work for him.
Do not assume that they could not have been very successful upon retirement from the military.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-15-2004, 18:38
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#8
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Do not assume that they could not have been very successful upon retirement from the military.
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I'm not making that assumption. My only point is that there has to be some very significant attraction to getting a job at the very apex of the military.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-15-2004, 18:46
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#9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I'm not making that assumption. My only point is that there has to be some very significant attraction to getting a job at the very apex of the military.
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I've got a theory about that.
Basically, if you have served honorably as a General, particularly if you have commanded at the four star level, what do you have to lose by speaking straight, telling the truth, and taking care of the troops?
Frankly, I think the two officers you mentioned are of like minds.
Probably explains why I will never reach that rank. 
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-15-2004, 19:04
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#10
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
what do you have to lose by speaking straight, telling the truth, and taking care of the troops?
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I would think the opportunity to advance, unfortunately. 
Sounds like the military is not that different from other organizations in that respect. I prefer your suggested course, personally.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-15-2004, 20:14
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#11
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I would think the opportunity to advance, unfortunately.
Sounds like the military is not that different from other organizations in that respect. I prefer your suggested course, personally.
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From my perspective, and only my perspective, you are making an invalid assumption if you are clumping those who are in SF with the rest of the "military". You see, for those of us that were in this business before SF became a branch, we were treated as leppers by the rest of the Army and career progression was never in any of our minds. We just believed in each other, what we did, what we were called upon to do, and looked out for each other. I would also think that your catagorization of the military as an organization might be correct for some branches that look upon the military as a job, but SF is a profession and as a profession requires a commitment made by professionals to the core values required for the execution of its missions. That is why I find the name of this site so appropriate. Quiet Professionals is not just a catch phrase but a gathering of warriors that share a common commitment to something that is larger than self bound together by experience, respect, patriotism, and profession. If we progressed up the ladder, it was not because we did not stand up and fight for what we believed in. It was because those for whom we fought produced results so astounding that we received undue credit for their efforts.
Jack Moroney-need to stop drinking coffee earlier
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Wenn einer von uns fallen sollt, der Andere steht für zwei.
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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08-15-2004, 21:01
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#12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I would think the opportunity to advance, unfortunately.
Sounds like the military is not that different from other organizations in that respect. I prefer your suggested course, personally.
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Again, I say that a man who is wearing four stars and has commanded up to and including USSOCOM has no advancement by returning to AD, even as the CSA.
The only reason to do that is to serve, help your nation, your Army, and your brother warriors.
Duty, Honor, Country.
Not just words, Counsel, get it?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-16-2004, 07:10
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#13
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Guest
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I like Rumsfeld.
1. He had enough faith in Special Ops to let the Afghanistan plan be executed despite the objections of the conventional Army.
2. He brought General Schoomaker out of retirement.
3. He got the Air Force to switch mission priorities so that Close Air Support is now their number one priority.
4. He is ramrodding the reorganization of our military in order to create more flexible organizations with a better tooth to tail ratio. Something that I think was long overdue.
5. He is actually taking on the conventional cold war mentalities head on.
6. He is paying attention to realities that have existed for a long-time, but which no one has been willing to admit (like the fact that if North Korea comes south, the only way we can defend South Korea is with nukes).
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08-16-2004, 10:33
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#14
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Again, I say that a man who is wearing four stars and has commanded up to and including USSOCOM has no advancement by returning to AD, even as the CSA.
The only reason to do that is to serve, help your nation, your Army, and your brother warriors.
Duty, Honor, Country.
Not just words, Counsel, get it?
TR
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Yes, thank you.
Is the answer different below the 4-star level?
In your experience, are all officers motivated strictly by "duty, honor, country," and not by ego? That would surprise me a great deal.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-16-2004, 12:36
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#15
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Yes, thank you.
Is the answer different below the 4-star level?
In your experience, are all officers motivated strictly by "duty, honor, country," and not by ego? That would surprise me a great deal.
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Now this is getting personal. I don't think anyone here can answer that question about anyone but themselves and the pleasant or not so pleasant experiences that they have had with others. I must admit, however, that your inference that those of us that might just be motivated by "duty, honor, and country" really do not exist and have separate agendas surprises me and would like to know what shaped your perception. Not so much because you might think I am offended about what you think about me, you see I really don't give a damn. Never gave a rats ass about what anyone thought about me. So would you like me to draw inferences of what I think motivates members of the legal profession? As the likely hood of my strolling along the halls of justice in your wing tips are just about equal to the likely hood of your slogging through the hinterlands in my combat boots neither of us would be qualified to make judgements about what makes the members of the other profession tick. We both have lowlifes in our professions and not only cream rises to the top-turds also float. While I cannot talk to your contemporaries I can talk to mine and I can assure you that in my case those folks that worked for me that consistently failed to meet the exceptionally low standards that they set for themselves are now doing something else. Can I say that is true about everyone, no I can't and I have been overruled in some cases because I stepped in someones toes, but then I never could dance and really wasn't interested in learning.
Jack Moroney
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