INCENTIVE PAY FOR ALL

[180A]

Does anyone know or has anyone heard about a proposed incentive pay that is coming down the pipe in 2010? I heard it will be implemented at the end of 2010.

[HQ6]

I have been hearing rumors of this since the better half got to group.... but so far nada. Last I heard the powers that be were fighting over which budget was going to get hit with the price tag. They may have resolved that, but I haven't heard anything official yet.

However, when/if it is kicking in... I'll take it

[Basenshukai]

You know what's crazy. I was speaking to a Subarine Warfare Qualified Naval officer (O-4) yesterday and he told me that he gets an incentive pay of $30K a year - on top of base pay - for remaining "in contract" within the Submarine Warfare community. He told me that this also applied for Naval Air as well as Naval Special Warfare types. He let me look at his LES and he also receives a sort of "proficiency pay" that totals about $750 per month (I think our SF NCOs get that much, or am I wrong on that). Anyway, it made me wonder, why it took so long to get the guys demo pay and why it is so hard to enact "across the board" incentive pay when this kind of money is thrown around in DOD. Some may think that CSRB is extravagant at nearly $150K, but, when SMs are receiving $30K per year for staying in a particular "community" (their lingo for "branch"), CSRB seems like nothing to be surprised at.

[Dragbag036]

I have only heard this, but it has to do with the number of personnel they employ in those units, compared to the number we have. That does not explain the fact of why QP's don't deserve more.

my .02 cents

[180A]

I will contact Miss Wolf out at SOCOM. She is the CW3 that told us in 2007 that we would be getitng demo pay in the near future. She was right on that, so if anyone knows, then she probably will.

[Richard]

I'm just curious - for what incentive might this new pay be awarded?

Richard's $.02

[troy2k]

The question asking why is incentive pay necessary. Our senior command doesn't get it either, that is, why do we need incentives..."In my day no one ETS'd." That's right SGM, and in your day guys got money out the ass and maybe shot at once in their career. Burying your friends has a way of taking the sizzle out of a bonus.
So does a Command team who fails to make their unit a place you want to stay. There are simply too many damn good deals out there to stay somewhere that sucks, and when the NG units have a better Command environment than AD, guess where lotsa fellas go? I'd love to see a study on how many 18X are now NG!!!
For the record the Army usually stifles already federally approved funds for these pays, for instance, the approved Warrant Officer ascessions bonus is 60k, and Seals get it, but DA cut SF down to 20k.

[Basenshukai]

I'm going to try and articulate this as diplomatically as possible because I have already had an experience with a thin-skinned senior NCO on this forum and I don't want to slight anyone that I share space with in this community. Plus, that is not my intention anyway.

Others have arrived at this same juncture on this very same thread already, so what I'm writing here is not earth shattering.

In the last three years I have received serious offers on the "outside" (civilian) world not having anything to do with security companies that deploy folks overseas. I have been offered yearly pay on the high side of $80K/year on two of them, and the last one was at six figures per year. I did not even spend ten seconds considering them. I enjoy my job too much.

HOWEVER, I do have a family.

Three years ago, as fate would have it, I missed death by merely 34 linear feet but lost four comrades in the same attack. I, along with three other QPs, and an FBI HRT agent along for the ride, picked up what was left of them while being in the middle of a 7 1/2 hour ordeal where we were denied MEDEVAC because the LZ was too hot (I don't blame them; it was). The next day, it was Valentine's Day back in CONUS; my wife did not hear from me for four days. But, other wives would never see their husbands alive again. By the way, when those men died, six children were made fatherless.

Chances are that I, like many others have done before me, will miss many one-time events in my children's lives because of my commitment to the teams. I have already sacrificed one marriage as a direct result of my personal lack of balance - at the time - between my desire to be the "first guy to volunteer" and to actually be present at home, even when I'm in CONUS (I've since fixed that deficiency).

In the time I was deployed, I saw four of our men die before me, and received the broken remains of an additional three in subsequent three months (I identified their bodies at the morgue each time and did all the paperwork so no one else in the unit had to experience that unnecessarily). Two other men died when I left country to see my dying father, who died shortly after I returned to CONUS - from cancer. To this day, there are feelings in the family that I "just was not there when he needed me". As, I was later told, he constantly asked for me. When I received the Red Cross message at the FOB, I refused to leave because we were about to execute the largest operation in-country in years with other SOF from the coalition and I did not want to leave when the unit needed me the most. I almost had to beg the Battalion Commander to let me stay a bit longer. I did stay. At the time, because of what I had experienced there, I felt that I could not improve my father's condition by seeing him, but that maybe I could help the operation go well and, perhaps, help save lives. To this day, I am split on the appropriateness of my decision in light of so many other variables.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING: I represent little, in terms of sacrifice, when compared to the rest of the QPs in the force that have completed two or three more rotations than I have. Men that left the gate just 48 hours after watching their brothers blown-up and/or shot and bleed out. I wish I was a multi-billionaire so that I could give them all some "incentive" pay.

I might have the ability to exit the inherently dangerous and unpredictable world of SOF because of my educational background and/or people I know outside. But, so many QPs have spent their younger years earning "masters" and "doctorates" in Special Operations and are locked into this world of ours. They may not even want an option out because they desire to remain loyal to the brotherhood - it defines who they are.

Call me crazy, but I think that deserves something other than a pat on the back. How about giving these guys an opportunity to get the best education for their children? Or, the ability to buy into better neighborhoods to live in. If pilots flying at 30,000 feet seem to deserve "incentive" for their tremendous feats of flying expertise, I would imagine that the men "in the arena" deserve it too.

I don't think I would ever have the temerity to question a QPs loyalty to the brotherhood because they seek a better quality of life for their family in light of their sacrifices. My opinion is that such an assumption is completely inappropriate in light of what WE KNOW they sacrifice EVERY DAY.

[180A]

Originally Posted by Basenshukai

I'm going to try and articulate this as diplomatically as possible because I have already had an experience with a thin-skinned senior NCO on this forum and I don't want to slight anyone that I share space with in this community. .

I tell ya what, if someone on here or in our community has thin skin, then they should go to another forum, or go to another community.

[Richard]

Guys also sometimes feel that the leadership does not value them or is not looking out for their best interest.

This is a long-running thread in the history of the American military.

Two anecdotes from our country’s founding capture the independent thinking of the American soldier and the greatness of the Army officer who led them. During the Revolution, a man in civilian clothes rode past a redoubt being repaired. The commander was shouting orders but not helping.

When the rider asked why, the supervisor of the work detail retorted, “Sir, I am a corporal!”

The stranger apologized, dismounted, and helped repair the redoubt. When he was done, he turned toward the supervisor and said, “Mr. Corporal, next time you have a job like this and not enough men to do it, go to your Commander-in-Chief and I will come and help you again.”

Too late, the corporal recognized George Washington.

The power of example in leadership.

On another occasion, Washington was making his rounds and came across a Private John Brantley drinking some stolen wine. Brantley invited Washington to have a drink with him.

The general declined, saying, “My boy, you have no time for drinking wine.”

Brantley responded, “Damn your proud soul – you’re above drinking with soldiers.”

Washington turned back, dismounted and said, “Come, I will drink with you.”

The jug was passed around, and as the general re-mounted, Brantley said, “Now, I’ll be damned if I don’t spend the last drop of my heart’s blood for you.”

A lesson in the independence of the American soldier and his loyalty, when treated with respect.

http://elitestv.com/pub/2009/05/defe...cement-address

Richard's $.02

[Utah Bob]

And clearly, no one joins SF just for the money.

I did. Somebody sold me a bill o' goods!!

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by troy2k

The question asking why is incentive pay necessary. Our senior command doesn't get it either, that is, why do we need incentives..."In my day no one ETS'd." That's right SGM, and in your day guys got money out the ass and maybe shot at once in their career. Burying your friends has a way of taking the sizzle out of a bonus.
So does a Command team who fails to make their unit a place you want to stay. There are simply too many damn good deals out there to stay somewhere that sucks, and when the NG units have a better Command environment than AD, guess where lotsa fellas go? I'd love to see a study on how many 18X are now NG!!!
For the record the Army usually stifles already federally approved funds for these pays, for instance, the approved Warrant Officer ascessions bonus is 60k, and Seals get it, but DA cut SF down to 20k.

I don't wish anyone presently serving NOT receive any and all money they can for their service. I hope that these bonuses are spread to any and all who may earn them. However, in "my" day they were filling a hell of a lot of body bags on a very regular basis. There were NO bonuses, or very small bonuses, for combat MOS's such as 11B /11C/12B etc. That is not why people volunteered, enlisted, re-enlisted, or stayed. It was much more than simply that.

It has to be much more than simply that...

[180A]

PRO Pay is supposed to go away. And you will be payed for the time you have in SF ie. 650 a month for your first three years in SF and then something like 1000 after that. You have to serve in an 18Series slot. It is supposed to go to all even 180As and 18As. Miss. Wolf put out in 2007 that we would be getting demo pay and it came down the pipe. If she put this out then it is most likely going to happen. And why not incentive pay? SF is deployed a hell of a lot more today than in the 80s and 90s. Seals get incentive pay and they are maxed out. Why wouldn't SF soldiers deserve it? I know it's not always about the pay, but if they are going to bring it up and pay it, then WHY NOT? We may be able to keep a lot more guys who are getting out and working contract work. In my company, we lost several guys to contract companies and a good medic on my team. I think the guys deserve it, and because Sr Officers don't get it, well they had their chance to attend SFAS just like the rest of us. I say pay it.

[Richard]

I don't think I would ever have the temerity to question a QPs loyalty to the brotherhood because they seek a better quality of life for their family in light of their sacrifices. My opinion is that such an assumption is completely inappropriate in light of what WE KNOW they sacrifice EVERY DAY.

Nobody's trying to question anybody's loyalty - just trying to understand a much different environment from the one faced during a different time in Group - when we fought to stay OCONUS where the job was for years at a time - among guys who had fought in WW2, Korea, the DomRep, LA, Africa, and throughout SEA (I knew guys with 5 - 9 straight years in SEA alone), etc - w/o the bonuses, > TDY, > incentive pay, etc. It took its toll, too, and one of the worst things about being back stateside was the funeral details for friends you had served with and had remained in-country when you DEROS'd.

Like ZD said - if the money's there, that's fine, but if not - will it change things?

Things change - personally, I hope some things don't.

Richard's $.02

[Lmmsoat]

Richard, I agree. If you are in it for the money you are in the wrong profession and I don't want you on my team. Though I don't believe anyone on this board is in it for the money. What I do feel is that most guys in group feel vastly under-appreciated. They have the feeling that no one in the chain of command cares about their sacrifices. I do enjoy the reality checks that you and the older generation provide for us. Last time I checked no group was doing year long tours, and back to back tours don't mean 2-3 years straight. I had the "opportunity" to chase down several knuckle heads through jungle-like terrain. It was the most puckering 5 hours of my life. I was literally on top of these fellas before I could engage them. I couldn't imagine doing it for a year straight.

The big difference between conflicts of past and the present are the availability of options. Private sector jobs are abundant on the outside for whoever wants them. The higher skill level you bring to the hiring table the higher your potential wages. I once bumped into a blackwater contractor making six figures. The guy was a former marine admin clerk whose only job was to ride on a helicopter as QRF. On top of the OCONUS contracts you have everyone and their brother building training sites, hiring former QP's for CONUS work.

I was offered the "big money" carrot many moons ago just prior to re-enlistment. I had my own personal reasons for not taking the bait and getting out. The next guy might have just as many reasons why he hates the military/the army/group/etc. and ETS.

I have more than a dozen friends who have gotten out for jobs on the outside. One had over 15 years in. They were all great guys and I never faulted them for doing so. But, almost to the man they regretted the decision (the only guy who doesn't, left with a huge chip on his shoulder). In the private sector (minus a few higher end jobs) no one has your back and it's every man for himself. That's the basic summary from 14 out of 15 former SF.

Incentive pay is cool and all if it ever does come down, but what will it change? You will still be going on the same deployments, you will still have the same chain of command you hate, and the same guys who want to get out will still get out. It's kind of like a civil lawsuit, "Your honor, I know I will never get my (fill in blank here) back, but 2 million dollars will make me feel better about it."

Now I will hide behind a rock in anticipation of stuff being thrown at me.