03-22-2005, 10:43
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#16
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
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It is truly sad to see that many Islamic clerics are still supporting the root of instability in their nation.
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It's how they stay in power
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 11:49
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#17
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SF Candidate
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 38
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NDD,
My original statement really reflects a disgust at the lack of logical application of political science on behalf of the Sunnis (opposition types specifically). Given their prewar power in the country it would follow that they would support the temporary occupation to enable the legitimization of their control in the free country. Barring all religious issues, retaliation demands, and fatwas against the US that they must show to keep face, it makes sense to me that they would use this as a means to assert the Sunni control of Iraq. Control which we are continually denying to those attempting to use the insurgency as its means to power.
Your comment however sparked a specific question....
Understand the rationale based upon Ba'athist rule, however, now it would seem to me that their position of authority would be guaranteed by either the Mullahs or their followers or both. Understand also the Sunni opposition to the occupation, interim govt etc. In this case though, if the Dulaimi mullahs are opposed to the insurgents then why the conflict. The imams garner the support of the population by virtue of their "descent" (whether actual or appointed) from Muhammad. Where is the power broker coming from in Ramadi right now.
Last edited by boat guy; 03-22-2005 at 11:52.
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boat guy is offline
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03-22-2005, 11:50
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#18
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: JBLM
Posts: 1,246
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It's good to see these kinds of stories come out. Makes me all warm and fuzzy to see these goons getting some of there own methodology. 
I'd say the author of this message did a good job of not pointing the finger at Islam as a whole but eluded to the fact that the insurgents are getting their support from these so called "clerics".
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jbour13 is offline
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03-22-2005, 12:57
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#19
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boat guy
NDD,
My original statement really reflects a disgust at the lack of logical application of political science on behalf of the Sunnis (opposition types specifically). Given their prewar power in the country it would follow that they would support the temporary occupation to enable the legitimization of their control in the free country. Barring all religious issues, retaliation demands, and fatwas against the US that they must show to keep face, it makes sense to me that they would use this as a means to assert the Sunni control of Iraq. Control which we are continually denying to those attempting to use the insurgency as its means to power.
Your comment however sparked a specific question....
Understand the rationale based upon Ba'athist rule, however, now it would seem to me that their position of authority would be guaranteed by either the Mullahs or their followers or both. Understand also the Sunni opposition to the occupation, interim govt etc. In this case though, if the Dulaimi mullahs are opposed to the insurgents then why the conflict. The imams garner the support of the population by virtue of their "descent" (whether actual or appointed) from Muhammad. Where is the power broker coming from in Ramadi right now.
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I'm by no means a SME. But my guess is that because they are a minority, they fear will be done to them what they would do to others.
I think the "against the insurgents" is on a personal/tribal level in this case. Not to mention national, as Zarqawi is not Iraqi. It may be a simple case of Hanlon's Razor on his part. I never misunderestimate family ties and revenge as a motive for sea change after living in LATAM so long. The Castaño family basically destroyed the ELN and brought the FARC to their knees because the FARC wouldn't give their father's body back after they murdered him.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 13:11
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#20
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 342
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"Hanlon's Razor"
What's "Hanlon's razor"?
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Cincinnatus is offline
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03-22-2005, 13:19
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#21
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
What's "Hanlon's razor"?
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Hanlon's Razor
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 13:20
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#22
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Quiet Professional
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Hanlon's Razor - “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 14:19
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#23
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
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This is how you put an end to the BS!
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Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
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BMT (RIP) is offline
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03-22-2005, 14:44
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#24
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Quiet Professional
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Wonder what has changed?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 15:17
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#25
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
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This is how you put an end to the BS!
WAG!!!
They are attempting toget money and food from the local shopkeepers!!
BMt
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Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
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BMT (RIP) is offline
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03-22-2005, 15:21
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#26
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Quiet Professional
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So you think they are not heeding Mao and Che's admonishment to "pay as you go"?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 15:45
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#27
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Moderator
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I don't want to overemphasize tribalism, but given its hold in the Middle East (and elsewhere) we have at times tended to underemphasize it.
Note that the Ramadi police official quoted in BMT's article is also a Dulaimi, like the assassinated Iraqi National Guard official cited in NDD's original article. Surf the web for articles on the voting in Fallujah. Note that on the few occasions that names of those who participated are given, they are often also Dulaimis. Perhaps this is some indication that the coalition is having some success winning over this tribal federation.
Comparative ignorance of the tribes is apparent in this February 12, 2005 article in The New York Times on Sunni participation (or lack thereof) in the elections. The first person quoted is Abdullah Muhammad al-Ajili, a 46-year old produce seller "simmering with resentment" who didn't vote. Left unmentioned is that the Albu Ajil (or Ajayl) is a tribe within the Tikriti federation which benefitted greatly from their relationship with Saddam Hussein's Albu Nasir tribe of the same federation.
The same article quotes a Sunni in Mosul who also didn't vote, but only because he decided to vote too late and couldn't find a polling place - "Dr. Majeed Alwan al-Sammarae, 41." The Samarrai' are a small independent tribe from east of Tikrit who have had an on-again-off-again relationship with the Tikritis. Wafiq al-Sammarai was a former chief of intelligence under Saddam Hussein who fled into exile, while Ayham al-Sammarai is Minister of Electricity in the current interim government.
The three biggest Sunni tribal federations are the Dulaimi, Jubburi and Shammari (not counting the Muntafiq, whose leadership is Sunni but almost all of whose tribes are Shi'ite). The Dulaimi and the Shammari are the most strategically important to the coalition, as the Dulaimi tribal zone extends from Baghdad's western suburbs to the Syrian, Jordanian and Saudi borders, while the Shammari are on both sides of the Syrian-Iraqi border in the north, west of Mosul. The interim president, Ghazi al-Yawar, is a Shammari sheikh.
Tactically important tribal federations and tribes include the Tikriti, the Ubaydi (large numbers of whom were settled in Kirkuk as part of Saddam Hussein's Arabicization of the region) and the Janabi. The latter is a relatively small tribe with Sunni and Shi'ite members but one skillfully used by both Ba'athists and Islamists. A tribal leader is Sheikh Abdullah al-Janabi, the self-proclaimed "Emir of Fallujah" until going into hiding after the November 2004 coalition recapture of the city. Other Janabis serve in the interim government, including Minister of State Adnan al-Janabi.
As soldiers past and present, we are actually probably better equipped to understand tribalism than a lot of others, since we live(d) in a form of it. Lines of loyalty that go "family first," then extended family, house, clan, tribe, tribal federation, are not dissimilar to platoon/team first, then company, battalion, regiment/group, division, branch, etc.
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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03-22-2005, 15:52
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#28
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Suffering from SF TDY Envy
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: null
Posts: 228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boat guy
NDD,
Your comment however sparked a specific question....
Understand the rationale based upon Ba'athist rule, however, now it would seem to me that their position of authority would be guaranteed by either the Mullahs or their followers or both. Understand also the Sunni opposition to the occupation, interim govt etc. In this case though, if the Dulaimi mullahs are opposed to the insurgents then why the conflict. The imams garner the support of the population by virtue of their "descent" (whether actual or appointed) from Muhammad. Where is the power broker coming from in Ramadi right now.
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Your looking at it as strictly religious, or strictly political, way more complicated then that. As NDD pointed out, never misunderestimate the role of family, and in that area also the role of tribe, clan, nationality, and even Ali Baba. The Ba'athists of Iraq may work with the Ba'athists of Syria when it helps their cause, doesnt mean they feel any loyalty or bond with them, and that they wont sell them out when that helps their cause.. The Shi'ites of Iraq in many cases do not like the Shi'ites of Iran, and many Iraqi's Ive spoken to absolutely hate their Hashemite neighbors to the West. The Saddam Ba'athists are Sunni, and so are the Kurds, but the two are worlds apart. Very complicated issue.
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ktek01 is offline
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03-22-2005, 15:55
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#29
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Quiet Professional
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Good post AL. You too Ktek Thanks.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-22-2005, 16:04
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#30
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer
I don't want to overemphasize tribalism, but given its hold in the Middle East (and elsewhere) we have at times tended to underemphasize it.
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The only reason the Russians and the Afgans fought so long was the Afgan tribalism. I think it took seven years to unite the Afgan tribes, and when we did the Russians were on the run. And as soon as the last Russian stepped off Afgan soil they once again were fighting among themselves.
Some of us understand it quite well AL. 
TS
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