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Old 04-15-2004, 20:27   #1
QRQ 30
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Question How to Decrease Taxes.

Folks I have changed threads since some can't seem to separate issues from personalities. I am of the placer mine persuasion: flush away enough trash and you may find something of worth.

The question is: How can we continue to increase spending while decreasing income?

There is an answer and I feel the Republicans are closest. Total taxes are not decreased. Actually by decreasing individual income taxes, spending increases and jobs are created, thus increasing sales, property, and even income taxes. The net effect of lowering the individual income tax rate can be an overall increase in total revenue.
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Old 04-15-2004, 20:41   #2
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Flat -tax: many countries are going that route and benefiting from the change.

The countries I can recall (off the top of my head): Russia, Slovakia, Latvia and I think Poland and Ireland. Ukraine
is supposed to adopt flat-tax reform this year I believe.

Ironically, we proposed a flat tax scheme for Iraq - 15%.
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Old 04-15-2004, 21:02   #3
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QRQ,

My young age may cause me to be misinformed, but is this not the basis of Reagan's trickle down theory in the 80's? By giving both individuals and businesses tax breaks, spending will increase and the economy will improve. Sounds like a solid plan to me.

However, I am also a true believer in the flat tax proposal. I have read that a estimated 17% tax, with few or no deductions would produce the same revenue as the current system. Hell, I am a poor college student making a few pennies from the national guard and only paying a couple hundred in taxes and I still believe in a flat tax. I do not understand why we do not change to such a simple and fair system. Just my opinion though.....

Andy
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Old 04-15-2004, 21:20   #4
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Crew341, I believe you are right, about the trickle down economics.

IMHO there have to be incentives for business to operate. If it is not advantageous for a company to expand, they have every right to sit on their wealth. The result is no jobs.

Business is not philantropic. A good example would be charities. If large donations to legitimate charities were not deductable, I wonder how they would exist.

A local example would be the BMW plant. They were given vast tax breaks to locate here. As a result there have been huge increases in employment, sales and property taxes, local sales etc have soared, without hravily taxing the company. The state didn't lose money by giving BMW tax breaks, it gained.

I too am not an economist -- just an old man who likes to discuss things.
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Old 04-15-2004, 23:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by ghuinness
Flat -tax: many countries are going that route and benefiting from the change.

The problem with a flat-tax and the removal of the estate tax is that it will create an aristocracy in the Republic, the likes of which we have not seen since Newport was the playground for the Barons of Industry.

I fully understand the reasoning behind people not liking the tax system and the systemic pains it causes many people. The inherent fact is that almost every sentence of code in the tax law is there for a reason. There is a reason for the Estate Tax. It is supposed to ensure that people can't simply hand down wealth, in totality, from generation to generation so that certain families control entire empires of our country.

I'm sorry if people disagree, but our nation is supposed to be about free-will, determination, and free enterprise. How is that possible if a few dozen familes are able to consolidate their wealth and holdings to the point where we can name the familes that control whole regions and those that seek to enter free-enterprise are crushed by said familes because they control entire regions?

I know it intimately. We have a corporation locally, that is family based, that controls almost 30% of our area. The way they structure their business, if the Estate Tax was not in place they would probably control 80-90% of the region. I am not saying that is bad, perhaps they would run things well, but in a free-market system how can we say that we have such a system if one family controls the entire market.

The elimination of the estate tax would simply be a step in the direction we moved away from in the early part of the last century. It's named the "Death Tax" by many who fail to understand it's full consequence.

I have to say I can understand why some people are so against such a system. People feel if they earned their money they have every right to pass it down in a way they see fit. I have a hard time disagreeing with that, yet all I have to do is look over my shoulder and see the product of such a system. We have a system that is Socialist/Captialist. It has worked for the better part of a century. We do not allow families or corporations to have undue influence on our system because we have learned from history that it is very dangerous.

We do not want any one man to control the press, well we did, from the lessons learned by Luce. Nor do we want to allow wealth to accumulate in a family in such a way that allows such undue influence that causes a lack of innovation or entrepreneurialship.

If we impose either the Flat-Tax or we eliminate the Estate-Tax we will revist the era of Robber-Barons and an era that saw a few familes controlling the destiny of our Nation by their power and wealth accumulated over generations.

There is a reason we moved away from this type of system and have the tax-system we have, it did not work for the greater society. This may seem like socialism, yet I would beg to ask anyone to point out how we have been worse off since these introduced policies have been in action have hurt our economy. Because, under such a system we have become the greatest economic model in the known world.

We have social systems in place, many disagree with them, we have a fairly even tax system in place, many will disagree, we have a system in place that ensures that we all at least are supposed to pay an even amount into the system for the Nation we inhabit.

I will conceed that the governmental agencies have been allowed to baloon out of control and that some form of control needs to be enacted, cut-backs, and even re-thinking of policy. What I will not conceed is the fact that many of these laws are in place for a reason. Whether people want to admit it or not we have a Socialist/Capitalist system in this country. It has seen us to the heights we are at now. The greatest economic power in the world. I simply question how people seem to think that going back to a system that was proven a failure is supposed to cure the ills that do not even exist.

Our system works. Why change it?
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Old 04-16-2004, 01:25   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ockham's Razor
[B]The problem with a flat-tax and the removal of the estate tax is that it will create an aristocracy in the Republic, the likes of which we have not seen since Newport was the playground for the Barons of Industry.
Show evidence of that.

Quote:
I fully understand the reasoning behind people not liking the tax system and the systemic pains it causes many people. The inherent fact is that almost every sentence of code in the tax law is there for a reason. There is a reason for the Estate Tax. It is supposed to ensure that people can't simply hand down wealth, in totality, from generation to generation so that certain families control entire empires of our country.

I'm sorry if people disagree, but our nation is supposed to be about free-will, determination, and free enterprise. How is that possible if a few dozen familes are able to consolidate their wealth and holdings to the point where we can name the familes that control whole regions and those that seek to enter free-enterprise are crushed by said familes because they control entire regions?
You mean like the Kennedy's? Oops, guess it doesn't work too well, does it?


Quote:
We do not allow families or corporations to have undue influence on our system because we have learned from history that it is very dangerous.
Really? Prove that.

Quote:
We do not want any one man to control the press, well we did, from the lessons learned by Luce. Nor do we want to allow wealth to accumulate in a family in such a way that allows such undue influence that causes a lack of innovation or entrepreneurialship.
That's why we have monopoly laws. Nothing to do with Estate tax.

Quote:
If we impose either the Flat-Tax or we eliminate the Estate-Tax we will revist the era of Robber-Barons and an era that saw a few familes controlling the destiny of our Nation by their power and wealth accumulated over generations.
Oh, bullshit. Justify that with facts and not with socialist fear tactics.

Quote:
There is a reason we moved away from this type of system and have the tax-system we have, it did not work for the greater society. This may seem like socialism, yet I would beg to ask anyone to point out how we have been worse off since these introduced policies have been in action have hurt our economy. Because, under such a system we have become the greatest economic model in the known world.

We have social systems in place, many disagree with them, we have a fairly even tax system in place, many will disagree, we have a system in place that ensures that we all at least are supposed to pay an even amount into the system for the Nation we inhabit.
And we are well on our way to bankruptcy, although the western European powers will beat us there.

Quote:
What I will not conceed is the fact that many of these laws are in place for a reason.
Yep. To get votes and amass power.
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Old 04-16-2004, 01:47   #7
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I believe I have made a believer out of GH! Kick his ass GH!
Flat tax is The People's Way!
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Old 04-16-2004, 02:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ockham's Razor
... we have a fairly even tax system in place, many will disagree, ...
While I was a student making under $12k/yr I paid roughly 10% total income tax. "Joe Richguy" making $500k was paying roughly 40%. Where does the "fairly even" part come in?
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Old 04-16-2004, 02:51   #9
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Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I believe I have made a believer out of GH! Kick his ass GH!
Flat tax is The People's Way!
I was a believer in flat-tax long before I had any idea who you were.

There are three groups of people who don't benefit from a flat-tax:

1. Politicians, since they no longer have tax exemptions and loopholes to use as bargaining chips.

2. The beauracrats of the IRS and other tax agencies who no longer have any reason for the excessive size or complexity of their organization.

3. Those who work in the tax industry, primarily accountants and lawyers, since a flat tax is simple enough for almost anyone to work out (also unlikely to get a return if your employer is simply withholding 17% of your income). Related to this group are corporate accountants and lawyers whose job is to ensure that the corporation they work for adhers to the tax code.

Simpler, fairer and in all liklihood, brings in a greater tax revenue to the government. Isn't the best solution (I think our founding fathers had the best solution), but it sure beats what we have now which is discriminatory, obviously unfair, and which impedes the economic growth of the country.
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Old 04-16-2004, 06:53   #10
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I was a believer in flat-tax long before I had any idea who you were.
Yes, but were you a believer before Karl and Frederick?

Before Leon and Vladimir?

Before Fidel and Ernestito?

I am but the latest incarnation in search of a Robin.

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Old 04-16-2004, 07:14   #11
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Originally posted by Greenhat

2. The beauracrats of the IRS and other tax agencies who no longer have any reason for the excessive size or complexity of their organization.

Move them from the IRS to the INS and fix immigration.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:19   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Yes, but were you a believer before Karl and Frederick?

Before Leon and Vladimir?

Before Fidel and Ernestito?

I am but the latest incarnation in search of a Robin.

This is a very interesting post, NDD. The truth of the matter is that at the turn of the 19th century, communism was very attractive and easily sold to the masses because it talked of doing away with the ruch and redistributing the wealth into a classless society. It was tried and didn't work. China is a prime example but perhaps more dramatic is the contrast between North and South Korea.

If it is not made attractive for the wealthy to invest their wealth and create jobs, they have every right to sit on their money and spend it as they see fit. Personally, I could live out the rest of my life quite comfortably with a cool million in the Bank of Costa Rica.

Qulte for the day: "Simple people, have simple solutions for "simple" problems"

CRS where it came from.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:25   #13
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I'm just messing with GreenHat. He hates it when I talk like this. LOL

I do agree with a flat tax. If you want to hit the rich a little, a flat sales tax will work. Rich people buy more stuff.

I would go for a flat 20%.

We have IVA. Flat 16% on most everything except milk and vegatables. Works well, but they put "profit" tax on top of that. Then steal the money.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 04-16-2004, 07:28   #14
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Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Yes, but were you a believer before Karl and Frederick?

Before Leon and Vladimir?

Before Fidel and Ernestito?

I am but the latest incarnation in search of a Robin.

I prefer Franklin, Jefferson, Monroe and Adams.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:32   #15
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'Mornin' sir.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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