Use of Force

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by stanley_white

I've been to several schools that spoke and trained to a situation in which you may have / choose to utilize a tactical folding knife in the blade closed position as an impact weapon.

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

Weird scenario but I believe there are times when one may pull their knife out but not have time to deploy the blade. Utilizing the knife as an impact tool as a gap-bridging technique in order to create time or space to deploy the blade could be realistic.

Thanks in advance for any imput you may have.

Interesting Question. I don't have a hard line answer for you.

However I can offer you this:
In the scenario you have, deadly force needs to be justified. So if deadly force is justified you would be justified in slashing, stabbing, etc. You would also be justified to use all lesser means, to include using the knife as you descirbed as an impact weapon.

Now if deadly force was not justified and an impact was justified you could use the knife as an impact weapon, but I wouldn't recommend it. In a typical folder there is not enough weight to be used adequately as an impact device. Now if you had The Reaper Knife by Mr. Harsey that thing looks like it has enough weight to be used as an impact device if you used the back side of the blade.

HTH.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by stanley_white

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

If I may...1) Yes pulling a folded knife is the same open/closed if your intent is to use it. If your intent is to display it then no.

2) SW your assuming that once a weapon is deployed you have the luxury of changing the scenario mid-fight. This is not realistic. Most Dept. SOP's live by the force continuum as a guideline for supervisors to justify your actions. On the street however you must decide which weapon to deploy, at what time, and which keeps you alive to write about it later. If you need an impact weapon why go to a folded knife? You may have a stick, jack, collapsed baton, etc. Like not bringing a knife to a gunfight your taught to use the right tool. HOWever I would be a liar if I said I never cracked a guy over the head with my radio when he decided to fight and could I could not get to another tool. So if you have a knife in your hands at the time the fight starts and you decide to use it as a blunt weapon sure that is a valid argument but you will get chastised by your supervisor for lack of SA I'm sure.

[stanley_white]

Gentlemen,

I thank you both for the information. I've been taught that technique by two different folks as an alternative and I never had a chance to inquire about the possible legal ramifications of it. Thanks for the info.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I always thought it came down to how many different versions of the story there are. I strive to ensure that at the end of the confrontation there is only one version and I tell it the same way every time. Makes it easier for everybody to decide.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I always thought it came down to how many different versions of the story there are. I strive to ensure that at the end of the confrontation there is only one version and I tell it the same way every time. Makes it easier for everybody to decide.

That is a great philosophy

[LEStudent]

Wow, excellent thread. How about impact weapons versus various areas of the body? We were taught in the Academy that an impact weapon is considered deadly force if used agains the head, neck, throat, or groin. I don't know if that would hold true for civilians, or if that's just how impact weapons are classed in FLDE's force-continuum.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by A Soldier

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy

So shouldn't we call you "A Sailor"?

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by LEStudent

Wow, excellent thread. How about impact weapons versus various areas of the body? We were taught in the Academy that an impact weapon is considered deadly force if used agains the head, neck, throat, or groin. I don't know if that would hold true for civilians, or if that's just how impact weapons are classed in FLDE's force-continuum.

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

Roger that Joe. Same goes up here as well. Are you teaching the Monandock(sp) force continuum? Also are you guys studying the effects (or lack of) of certain strikes against EDP's or suspects on both adrenal/chemically assisted highs? I'm just curious if the training is evolving.

[LEStudent]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

LEStudent,

The same is true for Civilains. If a Civy uses an impact weapon and stikes the head, neck or throat, it is considered deadly force. The best way to avoid inadvertanly using an impact weapon in a deadly force manner is to use Horizontal strikes to the limbs or body. If using vertical strikes it is easy to inadvertanly strike someone in there Grape.

Lastly I have never heard or been taught that striking the groin is deadly force. In Arizona the groin is classified as a 'secondary striking area'. Primary stiking areas are large muscle groups such as the thigh, calf, or bicep. Secondary stiking areas are joints such as the knee, elbow, or the groin.

Hmm... maybe I've gotten it wrong about the groin. I'll have to look again.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by LEStudent

Hmm... maybe I've gotten it wrong about the groin. I'll have to look again.

Must......resist......obvious.......response...... ..AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

[stanley_white]

I try to stay away if possible from using "pain compliance" techniques. My reasoning behind this is that they don't work too well on drunk / high / highly motivated attackers.

Techniques such as the OSS "Chin Jab" accelerate the skull faster than the brain can catch up and produce a good concussion effect that works well both on regular and drug indused / motivated folks.

My goal is to induce something like this:

http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/swfcoup.shtml


Of course everyone has a plan until the they get hit.

[LEStudent]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

Must......resist......obvious.......response...... ..AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

Oh geez... I can't believe I left myself open for that one.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

Roger that Joe. Same goes up here as well. Are you teaching the Monandock(sp) force continuum? Also are you guys studying the effects (or lack of) of certain strikes against EDP's or suspects on both adrenal/chemically assisted highs? I'm just curious if the training is evolving.

Goggles,

I can't talk right now nor can I comment on anything dealing with us of force right now. My Admin just bitched slapped me with some bullshit. Hope you guys understand. When all the dust settles I will advis.

[Goggles Pizano]

NP, PM me when you can.