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Old 08-25-2004, 09:28   #1
NousDefionsDoc
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Potus Bush Awol!

NOT!

I've been waiting for this...LOL
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He knows only The Cause.

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Old 08-25-2004, 09:42   #2
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Re: Potus Bush Awol!

Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
NOT!

I've been waiting for this...LOL
I tole y'all so a month ago. Bush had no time to qualify in a new aircraft after the F-102 was put down. I read somewhere that there were around 10% casualties among F-102 pilots -- not too safe.

Now, let's talk about Lt(jg) Johnny Kerry who actively campaigned against the war while still obligated to the Navy. A little research may also disclose that Kerry enlisted in the Naval Reserve not the Regular Navy. He seems to forget that when trashing the Guard.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:14   #3
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http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilse...ppointment.pdf
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 08-25-2004, 10:23   #4
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Re: Re: Potus Bush Awol!

Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Now, let's talk about Lt(jg) Johnny Kerry who actively campaigned against the war while still obligated to the Navy. A little research may also disclose that Kerry enlisted in the Naval Reserve not the Regular Navy. He seems to forget that when trashing the Guard.
Kerry enlisted into an Officer Candidate program, which would lead to a commission in the US Naval Reserve (as with the Army, at the time only Academy grads automatically got regular commissions). I don't see anything in his records that indicate his enlistment was intended to lead to service in the Ready Reserve rather than on active duty. His actual appointment as a reserve officer upon completing OCS was to active duty.

This is different from my experience, but I don't know 1960s practice or Navy practice. I was in the Army Reserve when I was accepted to OCS. I was discharged from the Army Reserve before reporting to Benning, where I became Regular Army. Upon graduating OCS, I was discharged from the Regular Army to accept a commission in the US Army Reserve.

I do find it odd that he enlisted in February 1966 but did not report to his OCIU until August. Is that normal? I signed my enlistment contract in April but did not report to Basic until late May, but my PEBD was the date I reported to Ft. Dix, not the date I went to MEPS. Kerry's PEBD was February 18, 1966, but on commissioning in December, he had accrued under 4 months active duty (OCS from August 19 to December 15).
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:27   #5
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I was looking at that gap as well. Why would he enlist for OCS with a college degree?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 08-25-2004, 10:36   #6
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Re: Re: Potus Bush Awol!

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Originally posted by QRQ 30
I tole y'all so a month ago.
you called it, Terry.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:38   #7
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I'm not really throwing any stones. However, Kerry started the shit about Bush's career. I am almost willing to wager that Bush spent as much or more time on AD than Kerry I believe the above article said it took around 2 1/2 years AD to become fully qualified in the F-102.

Kerry may be the one with early out aspirations. I never heard of the 3 boo boo clause.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:34   #8
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Kerry may be the one with early out aspirations. I never heard of the 3 boo boo clause.

I was wondering about that.....I knew a 1Sgt that had 4 "Slow Badges" (HIS terminology, no disrespect intended) and no "short tours".
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:41   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by DDD


I was wondering about that.....I knew a 1Sgt that had 4 "Slow Badges" (HIS terminology, no disrespect intended) and no "short tours". [/B]
Ny roomy in Germany, George Allen, used to say that the Purple Heart was for falling asleep and failing basic training.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:55   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I was looking at that gap as well. Why would he enlist for OCS with a college degree?
If you are a civilian, that's how you get a commission if you were not an Academy or ROTC grad. Your enlistment contract is for a commissioning program. About 10% of my OCS class were college grads with no prior service whose contract was BCT -> OCS -> butterbar. They came in as E-4s, became E-5s in OCS, and O-1s on graduation. And let me tell you there is nothing that warms an E-5 junior drill sergeant's heart more than an E-4 basic trainee.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:59   #11
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Thanks AL.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:02   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by DDD
Kerry may be the one with early out aspirations. I never heard of the 3 boo boo clause.

I was wondering about that.....I knew a 1Sgt that had 4 "Slow Badges" (HIS terminology, no disrespect intended) and no "short tours".
The "3 boo boo clause" was BUPERS Instruction 1300.39.

Dick Marcinko, as I recall, called the Purple Heart the VC Marksmanship Badge.

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Old 08-25-2004, 12:08   #13
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Though Kerry's whole "I was in the 'Nam" campaign has been premised on the contrast between him and Bush, they actually strike me as similar (Gore, too, and Quayle to a lesser extent). Scions of political families, they had no choice but to serve, but weren't especially interested in being infantrymen. Except for Quayle, they volunteered for assignments that did put them at risk, but relatively less risk than playing the draft lottery or volunteering for combat.

Bush chose fighters because his father was a combat aviator; Kerry sought small boats because his political idol and role model skippered a PT boat. Gore and Quayle had the same MOS, 71Q (Information Specialist/Reporter).

Bush and Gore got their preferred gigs right off the bat, while Kerry spent a desultory year on the USS Gridley (where, ironically, given Gore's and Quayle's MOSs, the job he received the most recognition for was public affairs officer).

Bush apparently inquired about Palace Guard, a job that would put him in Vietnam but not in the most risky assignment - 102s were hard planes to fly, but in terms of combat, flying incerceptors is not the same as flying Cobras or Wild Weasels.

Kerry sought Swifts again after his Gridley tour, which would put him in Vietnam, but not "in" Vietnam (coastal patrols were far less risky than the Brown Water Navy). It was Kerry's bad luck that ADM Zumwalt changed the Swifts' mission after Kerry got his new assignment.

Gore, having spent a year defending Fort Rucker with his typewriter, also realized that he was not getting the political benefit he would need for his future career, nor had he helped his father in conservative Tennessee (despite using the son in uniform in campaign ads, Senator Al Gore, Sr. lost his reelection bid). Gore was sent to Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 2, 1971. He was assigned as a reporter in HHC, 20th Engineer Brigade, at Bien Hoa. After 4 1/2 months where he saw no action, Gore got an early out, leaving Vietnam on May 22, 1971, and was discharged within a week. Something which I don't recall ever having been looked at in 2000 is this: the 20th ENG BDE was slated for inactivation in 1971, casing its colors in September. It has been stated elsewhere that the brigade's soldiers would have been transferred to other units or to the MAC-V general replacement pool, in which case Gore stood the risk of getting sent to a unit closer to combat or even getting reclassified as infantry. Gore's early out (to "attend" divinity school - he dropped out after failing 5 classes apparently due to non-attendance). As Kerry is alleged to have played the system to get out of Vietnam after 4 months, so Gore appears to have played the system to get out in an even shorter time, and to avoid the risk of becoming an infantryman.

The point is not to denigrate the risks that LT Kerry and SP/5 Gore did take. Gore (according to his own account) may never have fired his weapon in anger, but he couldn't know that going in. And Kerry did take his boat upriver. The point is that both played a very typical game of balancing the risks. In doing so they engaged in exactly the same calculus as Bush, for whom flying interceptors was risky, but not as risky as flying Corsairs or Intruders off a carrier into Vietnam would have been (the jobs most comparable to what his father did, if he had truly been following in his father's footsteps).

They remind me of a friend from high school who said he planned on becoming an MP. His logic was that he wouldn't be on the frontlines - he'd be behind the lines making sure the rest of us stayed at the front (maybe he would have been more comfortable in the NKVD). That way, he wasn't in the rear with the gear, but he wasn't in the trenches either.

The difference with our politicos here is that Bush is not running for President based on his not-quite-heroic-but-hardly-risk-free choices. Gore really wasn't either - he may have claimed to have been the model for Ryan O'Neal's character in "Love Story", but not for Matthew Modeen's Private Joker. Kerry, by contrast, is basing pretty much his entire claim for the Oval Office on having been the guy always running toward the sound of gunfire, when in reality his choices were just as ambivalent as those with whom he contrasts himself.

The military service of all three of these gentlemen is evidence of character, not proof. Kerry wanted to use his service to bludgeon others and to shut down debate. But the evidence is that no stark hero-vs-coward contrast can be honestly drawn. And while Bush's narrative is that he did not lead an ideal youth, but grew and learned from his mistakes, Kerry's is that he has not.
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:14   #14
NousDefionsDoc
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Great post!

Where did you get the info about Bush inquiring after the Palace Guard?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:45   #15
Airbornelawyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Great post!

Where did you get the info about Bush inquiring after the Palace Guard?
It is discussed in Col. Campenni's piece and has been mentioned elsewhere.
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