Are we at war with Islam?

[NousDefionsDoc]

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today condemned the mutilation of those killed in Iraq on Wednesday. Four American civilian contractors were ambushed in their SUV's, burned, mutilated, dragged through the streets and then hung from a bridge spanning the Euphrates River, according to news reports.

CAIR said the mutilations violated both Islamic and international norms of conduct during times of war and called on all parties to the conflict to respect the sanctity of the dead and the sensitivities of their families.

The Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group cited a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad that prohibits mutilating bodies (Hadith 654.3).

In another tradition, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Do not kill women or children, or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place." (Al-Muwatta, Vol. 21, Hadith 9)

CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, is headquartered in Washington, D.C., and has 25 regional offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada.

[NousDefionsDoc]

The voice of Islam in the US condemned the mutilation, not the murder.

I'm right, you're wrong.

I'm going to bed.

[DanUCSB]

Let me clarify. I was playing devil's advocate earlier.

As to the larger issue, I think there is only one way that Islam will lose its reputation for terrorism, and that's if and only if the majority of Muslims out there in the world break their 'silence', and actively and vociferously denounce those that use violence to achieve their ends. Muslim terrorists need to be ferreted out, denounced, and demonized by that majority of their own faith that has heretofore ignored/downplayed their despicable deeds. No, it won't work immediately, and in the meantime, that's where our boys with the M4s come in. But over time, opinions will change and moderate.

But that's a big 'if'. And it depends on the willingness of the world Muslim community to denounce those that would do violence on their supposed "behalf", which is something that we are definitely not seeing right now.

--Dan

[NousDefionsDoc]

Your sig line seems applicable in this context.

[DanUCSB]

I see how it is. Using my own sig line against me.

--Dan

[rudyzbt]

The man who wrote this is both a Prof in Political Science and a Mufti. There are people who speak out. I wouldn't say I agree with everything he has to say here, but its his freedom to express his political opinion (he says that the Muslim world needs more men like Ted Kennedy ) I just thought his response was interesting.

MEMO TO MR. BIN LADEN: GO TO HELL!

Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D.

This article has so far been published in Washington Post (02.16.03), TheGlobalist (02.14.03), Outlook India (02.15.03) The Arab News (Saudi Arabia 02.18.03), The Age (Melbourne, Australia 02.22.03), Afghan Times (02.23.02) Times of Central Asia (02.22.03) Iran and World (02.22.03) Tampa Tribune (02.21.03), Euthanesia News (02.22.03) DestinyWalking (02.22.03), St. Petersburgh Times (02.21.03). This Memo was also read by the author on the Roy Green Show (Ontario, Canada 02.20.03).

This is an American Muslim’s response to the Tape recorded message dated February 11th, 2003 by fugitive-terrorist Osama Bin Laden.

Mr. Binladen,

In the name of Allah, The Most Merciful, the Most Benevolent.

I begin by reciting some important principles of Islam to remind you that there is more to Islam than just a call to arms.

1. Islam was sent as mercy to humanity (Quran 4:79).

2. Do not make mischief on the earth (Quran 29:36).

3. People, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you might know one another. The noblest of you before God is the most righteous of you. (49:13)

4. There are among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) upstanding nations that recite the message of God and worship throughout the night, who believe in God, who order honor and forbid dishonor and race in good works. These are the righteous. (3:113-114).

I am writing this to make it clear that there are Muslims in America and in the world who despise and condemn extremists and have nothing to do with Binladen and those like him for whom killing constitutes worship.

Islam was sent as mercy to humanity and not as an ideology of terror or hatred. It advocates plurality and moral equality of all faiths (Quran 2:62, 5:69). To use Islam, as a justification to declare an Armageddon against all non-Muslims is inherently unIslamic – it is a despicable distortion of a faith of peace. One of Allah’s 99 names in the Quran is “Al Salam� which means Peace. Thus in a way Muslims are the only people who actually worship peace. Today this claim sounds so empty, thanks to people like you, Mr. Bin Laden. You and those like you are dedicated to killing and bringing misery to people wherever they are. God blessed you with the capacity to lead and also endowed you with enormous resources. You could have used your influence in Afghanistan to develop it, to bring it out of poverty and underdevelopment and show the world what Islam can do for those who believe in it. You chose to provoke and bring war to a people who had already been devastated by wars.

Yes many innocent people lost their lives in America’s war on Afghanistan and many more might lose their lives in Iraq. This is indeed regrettable. But we must never forget as to how the West is divided over this and how nations and people within nations are agonizing in Europe and in America over this decision to go to war in Iraq. While many Americans and Europeans oppose the war, Muslim nations have already agreed to cooperate in this war. No Muslim leader has tried to play the role of a statesman on this issue. It is a tragedy that there is not a single Ted Kennedy, Jimmy Carter or Nelson Mandela in the entire Muslim world who would stand up and speak for justice!

Before we rush to condemn America we must remember that even today millions of poor and miserable people all across the world are lining up outside US embassies eager to come to America, not just to live here but to become an American. No Muslim country today, can claim that people of other nations and other faiths see it as a promise of hope, equality, dignity and prosperity.

Yes, we American Muslims will continue to challenge the Bush administrations’ proposal to wage war against Iraq. We think a regime change in Washington is as necessary as a regime change in Baghdad, but that is an intramural affair. Once the war is declared, make no mistake Mr. Saddam Hussain and Mr. Bin Laden, We are with America. We will fight with America and we will fight for America. We have a covenant with this nation, we see it as a divine commitment and we will not disobey the Quran (9:4) – we will fulfill our obligations as citizens to the land that opened its doors to us and promised us equality and dignity even though we have a different faith. I am sure Mr. Bin Laden, you can neither understand nor appreciate this willingness to accept and welcome the other.

Sure at this moment out of anger, frustration and fear, some in America have momentarily forgotten their own values. I am confident that, God willing, this moment of shock and insecurity will pass and America will once again become the beacon of freedom, tolerance and acceptance that it was before September 11th. On that day Mr. Binladen, you not only killed 3000 innocent Americans, many of whom were also Muslims, but you signed the death warrants of many innocent people who will die in this war on terror and many more who will live but will suffer the consequences, the pain and the misery of war. Before September 11th, the US was giving aid to Afghanistan and was content to wait for the Iraqi people to free themselves and the rest of the world from their dictator. On that day you changed the rules of the game and Muslims in many places are suffering as a direct consequence.

When the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his companions fought in the name of Islam, Allah made them victorious and glorified them in this world. They made Islam the currency of human civilization for over a millennium. You and your men on the other hand face nothing but defeat, global ridicule and contempt and run and hide like rats in caves and dungeons. You live in the dark. Your faith neither enlightens you nor enables you to live in the light and you have made Islam the currency of hate and violence.

Let me tell you that I would rather live in America under Ashcroft and Bush at their worst, than in any “Islamic state� established by ignorant, intolerant and murderous punks like you and Mullah Omar at their best. The US, patriot act not withstanding is still a more Islamic (just and tolerant) state than Afghanistan ever was under the Taliban.

Remember this: Muslims from all over the world who wished to live better lives migrated to America and Muslims who only wished to take lives migrated to Afghanistan to join you.

We will not follow the desires of people (like you) who went astray and led many astray from the Straight Path. (Quran 5:77).

I conclude by calling upon you Mr. Bin Laden and your Al Qaeda colleagues and Mr. Saddam Hussain to surrender to International Courts and take responsibility for your actions and protect thousands of other innocent Muslims from becoming the victims of the wars you bring upon them.

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
We dont hear them denouncing the violence either, atleast not as loudly as the minority screaming about killing us.

Doesn't make a good story. Be careful of assuming that because the media doesn't report it, it doesn't happen.

What's that line?

"Ma'am, you could fill books with what you don't read in the newspapers."

[Solid]

Phew. I'm glad I didn't get whupped while I was asleep.
Referring to insurgency, Bard E. O'Neill emphasises that by generalising, a counter-insurgency force limits its own effectiveness. I think that it is therefore very dangerous for US policy, or even just our thoughts, to be aimed against Islam in general. If we percieve our enemy to be Islam as a whole, Islam will effectively become our enemy.

IMO, if and when we invade Saudi, Iran, etc, it would be better to have the ability to co-opt the 'silent majority' than have them formed against us.

Technically, we might be at war with Islam, but I think that THINKING that we are could be dangerous.

Solid

[Cherrycat]

Up to OEF, Bangladesh was one of the most corrupt nations in the world; however, free of state funded terrorist groups. After OEF, a large number of armed militants came into Chittagong and reportedly slipped off into the Jungle. This was all reported by Indian Intel. The up side is that we still pay more money to the Gov't of Bangladesh and they are on our side overall. The down side is that some government official is getting a new BMW for looking the other way when an RPG goes off.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Greenhat
Be careful of assuming that because the media doesn't report it, it doesn't happen... ..."Ma'am, you could fill books with what you don't read in the newspapers."

I believe if there was even a single public outcry from the clerics and other moderate Muslims, over the terrorist attacks that happened on 9.11 and continue to happen on a daily basis around the Globe in the namme of Allah we would hear it.

When the Catholic Priest scandals started there were a large outcrying of the catholic church that was televised.

When the Atlanta abortion clinic bombing happened "in the Name of God" there was a public outcry from both pew sitters and pastors/clergy.

I may very well be skewed in my thinking, but I believe if they were to stand up someone would broadcast/publish it.

Again my .02

[Sigi]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You don't hear about the silent majority because they are silent.

The most you will get, that I have seen is "We regret the loss of life in...today."

That's not denouncing.

I have been kicked off and IP banned from more than a few Muslim and Islamic sites. A great majority of these boards were populated by - surprise - radical Muslims. They see America as gulping up the lands of Muhammad, providing financial and political support for Muslim/Arab leaders who oppress their people, and generally keeping the Muslim religion down.

Yeah, they quote alot from the Koran - "Allah be willing" etc... - but in my opinion they see an opportunity to combine terrorism with religion to foster hate. To me it is this simple.

And because they use religion as a conduit to recruit more radicals and promote more hate they have in effect hijacked that religion.

Why? Because so many moderate Muslims allow it. They may not want to participate, but they are secretly happy that Islam is the flavor of the month, so to speak. People are now centering their attention on the ME and the moderates want this to continue.

Until the moderates realize that change comes from within, and not by trying to intimidate another country's population through terrorism, than I can honestly say that they have allowed the religion to be hijacked. They are co-conspirators and should shoulder almost as much blame as terrorists.

So yes, we are at war with Islam. When they can produce leaders that physically remove terrorists from the population than they have started to get my attention. When they have protests in the streets denouncing terrorists acts, or police their own population by thwarting future terrorism, then they have my attention.

When they stop blaming the world - the Western world - for their lot in life and start creating a means to peace in their religion/culture/geography/whatever, they will become genuine partners in the world community.

The more I see the Muslim world conduct themselves - collectively - the more I believe that Islam needs a Reformation. It can only happen from within.

They are nowhere close to this type of paradigm shift. So in the meantime maybe they should worry about us killing them for a change, instead of the other way around.

[Sigi]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric

When the Catholic Priest scandals started there were a large outcrying of the catholic church that was televised.

I see your point, but IMO, the outcry over pedophile priests came from the Press and the Catholic population. Many Bishops and Clergy were very slow to open up this festering wound. Especially when they had to know about it years and years before it happened.

Admitting there was a crime after you have been busted is much different than policing yourself. As a lifelong Catholic I was proud of the Catholic population for stepping up and demanding that the church do something.

Same with Islam. The population needs to act collectively and in unison or else they risk a cultural war with the West. Like I said, they need a Reformation - a 98 Thesis on the Mosque door - to gain control of that religion.

I just wonder if the West has the balls and the attention span to force this internal paradigm shift, because they are showing no signs of changing. In fact, the more they get their message out there and gain support among socialists like the Spanish Govt, the farther away we are from realizing a peaceful Islam.

The more we pull out of engagements in Muslim lands the stronger their resolve becomes. The more wicked their attacks (i.e. Fallujah) become, the more the West is left aghast. And when they see that, they design more horrible attacks to get even stronger responses. And thus their resolve grows even more.

Just my .02.

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
I believe if there was even a single public outcry from the clerics and other moderate Muslims, over the terrorist attacks that happened on 9.11 and continue to happen on a daily basis around the Globe in the namme of Allah we would hear it.

When the Catholic Priest scandals started there were a large outcrying of the catholic church that was televised.

When the Atlanta abortion clinic bombing happened "in the Name of God" there was a public outcry from both pew sitters and pastors/clergy.

I may very well be skewed in my thinking, but I believe if they were to stand up someone would broadcast/publish it.

Again my .02

Interesting. Where I live, I heard nothing about either one of those. But I have heard Muslim clerics denouncing terrorism.

[NousDefionsDoc]

BANGKOK, THAILAND: Thailand may withdraw its forces from Iraq earlier than planned due to concerns about violence in the country after the United States transfers power to Iraqis on June 30, a government spokesman has said. The Defense Ministry will conduct a review on whether 443 Thai troops on a humanitarian mission in Iraq should come back in September as planned or sooner, said ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Palangun Klaharn on Saturday."We have to look at future variables, whether there will be other (nations') troops withdrawn from Iraq or not. "But right now we plan to stay there to finish off the full year," Palangun told The Associated Press by telephone.

Your point?