08-02-2004, 09:04
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#1
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Blackwater Shootout 2004
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/bl...analysis1.html
Did you go this year TR?
Glad to see the Military is (finally) doing testing on the LeMas ammo. Congrats Stan.
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Smokin Joe is offline
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08-02-2004, 09:11
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#2
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Quiet Professional
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Re: Blackwater Shootout 2004
Yep.
Thanks for the link.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 10:30
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#3
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Area Commander
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Re: Re: Blackwater Shootout 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Yep.
Thanks for the link.
TR
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What is your opinion on the XM-8? It seems to have a lot of detractors.
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rubberneck is offline
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08-02-2004, 10:44
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#4
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Re: Re: Re: Blackwater Shootout 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by rubberneck
What is your opinion on the XM-8? It seems to have a lot of detractors.
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I believe I was quoted in that section of the article.
Interesting residue from the OICW program, answers an unasked question. Did someone say we need a new 5.56 carbine?
May, or may not be better than the H&K M-4 with the XM-8 closed gas system.
With the 12.5" barrel, look reduced accuracy and a max effective range of about 50m. with the M855, due to lack of frag from the bullet at low velocity.
I am not a fan.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 11:33
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#5
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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TR,
have you seen the new H&K M4? 26,000 rounds, no cleaning, perfect reliability......the xm8 is a different animal....thoughts?
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Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:17
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#6
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Quote:
Originally posted by swatsurgeon
TR,
have you seen the new H&K M4? 26,000 rounds, no cleaning, perfect reliability......the xm8 is a different animal....thoughts?
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Played with both, haven't shot them.
The AMU requested T&E weapons from H&K, who IIRC, declined to provide them as of February.
I think the H&K M-4, as I stated has a lot of potential. That, when combined with the H&K mags, remove the majority of the problem areas from the weapon.
I can see the Army possibly upgrading to the H&K uppers and mags.
HTH.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:25
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#7
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Area Commander
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This is what is really confusing about this whole subject. Why would H&K offer two different products for the same market? I understand some of the politics involved but from a business standpoint it is just plain old stupid. Spend all that time and money working on perfecting the XM-8 and then you undercut that project with an improved version of the M-4, which is what most end users seem to prefer. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
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rubberneck is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:28
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#8
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Quote:
Originally posted by rubberneck
This is what is really confusing about this whole subject. Why would H&K offer two different products for the same market? I understand some of the politics involved but from a business standpoint it is just plain old stupid. Spend all that time and money working on perfecting the XM-8 and then you undercut that project with an improved version of the M-4, which is what most end users seem to prefer. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Because the XM-8 still has an X in it.
The M-4 gas system, IIRC, is lifted directly from the XM-8.
Rather than lose a very large contract, they would prefer a somewhat smaller, but still profitable venture to the position of getting nothing.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:46
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#9
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Area Commander
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My limited understanding of the situation was that the XM_8 was all but a lay up for H&K. I guess I was wrong. I remember reading something to the effect that they wanted to salvage something from the OCIW boondogle and that the XM-8 was it.
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rubberneck is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:47
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#10
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Area Commander
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TR,
Are the XM-8 ergonomics as uncomfortable as the UMPs?
Last edited by Smokin Joe; 08-02-2004 at 15:01.
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Smokin Joe is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:53
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#11
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Quote:
Originally posted by rubberneck
My limited understanding of the situation was that the XM_8 was all but a lay up for H&K. I guess I was wrong. I remember reading something to the effect that they wanted to salvage something from the OCIW boondogle and that the XM-8 was it.
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Nobody has asked the shooter's opinions yet, IIRC. If they had, it wouldn't be fielded with anything less than a 16" barrel.
Military-Industrial complex, anyone?
There is a new H&K plant in Colombus, GA. Wonder why?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 14:56
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#12
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Miguel, CA
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HK
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
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JGarcia is offline
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08-02-2004, 15:10
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#13
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Re: HK
Quote:
Originally posted by NG_M4_Shooter
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
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You won't find much on the H&K "M4" Program, Because Colt is Suing several Manufacturers Including H&K & Bushmaster for using the Name"M4"
Colt Lawsuit
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Air.177 is offline
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08-02-2004, 16:18
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#14
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Quiet Professional
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Re: HK
Quote:
Originally posted by NG_M4_Shooter
I noticed a while back that H&K had some info about their M4 program on their website. Bet then when all the hullaballoo started with the XM8 they took the HK M4 info off of the website.
You wont come up with too much nowadays if you do a search on the HK M4. I wonder what kind of comments would come from shooters if they had a weapon with the HK upper (with the gas piston system and SIR type rails) for the M4 chambered in the 6.8mm?
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Why would you want it in 6.8?
Do you have any experience with the round?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-02-2004, 16:32
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#15
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
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6.8
no specific reason. I was thinking aloud aqbout what others might say about such a weapon. There is quite a bit of chatter lately RE: the 6.8mm.
I dont know enough about the ballistic minutae to say whether it would be superior to 5.56mm.
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