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Old 04-20-2006, 09:38   #1
MtnGoat
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Hydraulic ram water pumps

Looking to see if anyone has use or really made a Hydraulic ram water pumps?

Ram water pumps use downhill water pressure to pump water much higher than it started, with no other power needed. A 20ft fall is enough to push water 150 feet above the source or more. Or as little as a 2ft fall between the water source and the pump at a flow rate of 1 to 3 gallons per minute is enough to pump water 20ft higher than the source -- as much as 4,000 gallons a day, depending on the model.

I'm looking at making some for down range.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:59   #2
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Hydraulic ram water pumps

Some area's of the world a pump like this would be more help than million dollar new school.

BMT
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Old 04-20-2006, 14:22   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMT
Some area's of the world a pump like this would be more help than million dollar new school.

BMT
BMT

Thanks my thinking. Just looking for some Country Boy that has used this pump or at least something close to it.
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Old 04-20-2006, 17:42   #4
Bill Harsey
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I've got my go-to guy for this kind of thing near by. Will ask him when he gets home from his day job which is keeping a major rock quarry and fleet of trucks and heavy machines running. This seems like something he might know about.
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:38   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
I've got my go-to guy for this kind of thing near by. Will ask him when he gets home from his day job which is keeping a major rock quarry and fleet of trucks and heavy machines running. This seems like something he might know about.
Mr. Harsey,

I figured that you, or some in your area, would be my Go to Guy. Looking to see how well they work, factory or home made. Good or Bad points.
Thanks
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:01   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
Mr. Harsey,

I figured that you, or some in your area, would be my Go to Guy. Looking to see how well they work, factory or home made. Good or Bad points.
Thanks
I'll be tracking down Ken tonight and drag him back to this thread, shouldn't be hard to do, we share a fence line. Among his specialty's is/are hydraulic systems. Ken has more hardcore outback technology in his finger tips than anyone else I know.
If I have a difficult welding or mechanical problem, this is the guy I go ask.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:23   #7
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Thanks

Bill,

Thanks for finding this out for me. I know these pumps look real good for down range useage. Just like BMT said worth a Million Dollars in some places. Thanks

VG
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Old 04-21-2006, 16:41   #8
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Doing a little more research over these pump. I found this site, Go to the Link - Ramp Pump Design Specifications (Institute for Appropriate Technology). What I like about it, is the site layouts how to find out your rate of water flow and other info all in Metric. It also breaks down the make up of the system and the layouts that work.

Mr. Harsey,

From doing more reading, yes these pump do have a water waste at the beginning or startup of the pump. This is two fold: First because the main chamber (pressure) is filled with air, and this acts as the pressure mechanism to push the water out of the pump. This chamber must fill up with water. This chamber acts as an "air bladder" to prevent water-logging or air-logging. The homemade Ram Pump site list a Bike Tube, I've also seen a Ball. Also there is a poppet or release valve at the beginning of the Pump on the down hill side (Inlet).

Anyone used these before?
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Last edited by MtnGoat; 04-22-2006 at 06:40.
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Old 04-22-2006, 08:40   #9
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MtnGoat,
What I got from the first read thru is that these pumps cycle about once per second and some water is lost on each cycle (or pulse).

I discussed this with Ken last night, he hasn't heard of these but will break later today to come over and review the material.

You done good, stumped two woods raised Oregon rednecks on a mechanical issue. That doesn't happen often.

edited to add: Noticed one of the sources listed from your last link to the Canadian website is the North Carolina Extension Service.

Last edited by Bill Harsey; 04-22-2006 at 10:05.
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:19   #10
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MtnGoat --

I know a guy who has used these in the third world for filling impoundments used for milling grain, potable water and watering cattle. He was making pumps out of standard pipe, fittings, and small propane tanks. The cost of the pump can be very small -- it's the cost of the pipe up to the impoundment that can get prohibitive. I know because he hit me up for a donation to buy drive/delivery pipe for a project he was working on. High head flows allow smaller pipe diameters and less $$$. The specific application he was using them for was in mountainous areas that had spring runoff and sporadic heavy rains interspersed with dry spells. They pumped the h2o uphill during periods when the streams flowed and ran it down through a grain mill and then into cattle tanks during dry spells.

As BMT pointed out, the knock on effects from this were enormous -- more milk/better nutrition for kids, healthier cattle, more free time for women to start small businesses for cash, etc. etc.

I will track him down and PM his current location/email. I had his plan for building a ram out of standard 2" and 4" pipe -- I will try to find it.
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:29   #11
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Found it...

tr11.pdf

He like this because it used cheap 1" drive and delivery pipe and it was cheap enough they could build several -- deliver up both sides of the valley wall. They used small propane tanks for the air chamber.

Edited to add: http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/DTU/pubs/lift.html

The guy I know was originally from Warwick engineering dept

Last edited by mugwump; 04-22-2006 at 10:32.
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Old 04-22-2006, 14:32   #12
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Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by mugwump
MtnGoat --

I know a guy who has used these in the third world for filling impoundments used for milling grain, potable water and watering cattle. He was making pumps out of standard pipe, fittings, and small propane tanks. The cost of the pump can be very small -- it's the cost of the pipe up to the impoundment that can get prohibitive. I know because he hit me up for a donation to buy drive/delivery pipe for a project he was working on. High head flows allow smaller pipe diameters and less $$$. The specific application he was using them for was in mountainous areas that had spring runoff and sporadic heavy rains interspersed with dry spells. They pumped the h2o uphill during periods when the streams flowed and ran it down through a grain mill and then into cattle tanks during dry spells.

As BMT pointed out, the knock on effects from this were enormous -- more milk/better nutrition for kids, healthier cattle, more free time for women to start small businesses for cash, etc. etc.
mugwump

What your friend did with his is what I see the use as (farming). But your not limited, I think really temperature would only drive any issues with the pump - freezing wise.

I buy pumps just about everytime down range for a school or something. This pump looks so easy to make and the overall cost if it breaks downs in nothing. Cost to me in nothing, this pump I could save "tons" of $$ over buying a pump from Europe or Asia. Also, these being homemade, in some areas, if they work well. You can teach a trade to some locals. Then they make $$ in their pockets too.

Yes I would like to talk to your Buddy. Phone or Email whatever is easy for him. The first link is great - Thanks for that find. I want a metal pump plan.

VG
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Last edited by MtnGoat; 04-23-2006 at 08:43.
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Old 04-23-2006, 09:46   #13
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Mugwump,
Great information. I've been studying the pdf with the parts list for the pump.
First, looks like your guy is building a tandem or dual pump.

The parts diagrams got me thinking. One could have a couple kinds of pump kits to work from.
Of course the full kit would have everything but the water.

The next kit would be bare bones with only the parts that would be hardest to get and the rest would be found as common material in the country it was being built in.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:32   #14
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MtnGoat - I've been lurking to see where this thread goes because I've never installed one of these pumps. I did study them when the "self sufficiency" movement was really big in the late 70s, early 80s and I've seen one in place/working. When MEN (Mother Earth News) was first being published (here in Hendersonville NC before they went bankrupt and got bought out by the MSM) they had a demonstration farm and this was one of the technologies they encouraged. (If they had just kept their politics to themselves I might still be a subscriber.) I've kept the books I collected back then (and some of them have started being reprinted with updates). The issues I discovered during my research are all site specific. #1 - There ain't no free ride. Most setups will require some type of impoundment to stabilize waterflow and ensure sufficient head (perpendicular drop in the water column) to function correctly. (Check out low-head micro hydro powerplant design while you're researching alternative/sustainable technologies.) The charts on your web sites are the same as what I've got in my library. #2 - Under ideal conditions, pumping efficiency is 10%. The higher you want to lift the water or the lower the head you have to start with, the less you can lift. The 150' - 600' heights you read about have high heads, high flow rates (or both), and (very) low pump rates. If you're lifting high enough the input side may (probably will) cycle more than once before it builds enough pressure in the air tank to "squirt" a water impulse out the supply side. #3 - The system is intended to function with surface water. Since wells are (should be) sited away from potential sources of contamination I don't know if it would be worth the effort to move well water. Any potable water system would probably require filtration/purification at the top of the lift with a tank and a gravity distribution system. We (3/7) did this several times in the 80's in Latin America. Chimore Base Camp comes to mind (used an electric well pump and a tower w/tank). The team before mine set it up and did a good job. All we had to do was maintain/expand it. Don't forget friction when calculating pipe sizes and lift potential.

Good job digging up the weblinks. The sustainable/permaculture/environmentalist groups have a lot of useful information that is still being developed. Another place to look is with the CA units on Bragg. I got my copy of the "Village Technologies Handbook, Volume 2" from a team mate who swiped it from a CA contact years ago. Their library should still have a lot of that stuff. A lot of stuff was compiled by USAID, VITA (Volunteers in Technical Assistance), the Peace Corps, and various missionary groups in the early 60's. Much of it has been forgotten/lost in favor of installing generators, electrical grids, pumps, etc. Unfortunately that's what the locals have been conditioned to expect by poorly thought out US aid programs. In my (admittedly not recent) experience, the indig actually demanded the "high tech" (BTW - unsustainable) solutions. I still remember pissing off a bunch of "do-gooders" when we described ourselves as "Peace Corps With Guns". Way too much fun jerking their chains. Nice thread, I hadn't thought about most of this stuff in years. Peregrino
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Old 04-23-2006, 13:44   #15
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"Peace Corps With Guns"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino
The issues I discovered during my research are all site specific. #1 - There ain't no free ride. Most setups will require some type of impoundment to stabilize waterflow and ensure sufficient head (perpendicular drop in the water column) to function correctly. (Check out low-head micro hydro powerplant design while you're researching alternative/sustainable technologies.) The charts on your web sites are the same as what I've got in my library. #2 - Under ideal conditions, pumping efficiency is 10%. The higher you want to lift the water or the lower the head you have to start with, the less you can lift. The 150' - 600' heights you read about have high heads, high flow rates (or both), and (very) low pump rates. If you're lifting high enough the input side may (probably will) cycle more than once before it builds enough pressure in the air tank to "squirt" a water impulse out the supply side. #3 - The system is intended to function with surface water. Since wells are (should be) sited away from potential sources of contamination I don't know if it would be worth the effort to move well water. Any potable water system would probably require filtration/purification at the top of the lift with a tank and a gravity distribution system. We (3/7) did this several times in the 80's in Latin America. Chimore Base Camp comes to mind (used an electric well pump and a tower w/tank). The team before mine set it up and did a good job. All we had to do was maintain/expand it. Don't forget friction when calculating pipe sizes and lift potential.
These are some really good points that you've made. I'm doing some research to see if these can be used down range. The whole thing with any water system if the water source. I'm looking for pumps for irrigation of small plots in Communal Areas. Most I've seen use just a hand pump or have the $$ to purchase on good pump. Yes your right - there no easy way. But this is something that I can have in that old tool box.

Quote:
The sustainable/permaculture/environmentalist groups have a lot of useful information that is still being developed. Another place to look is with the CA units on Bragg. I got my copy of the "Village Technologies Handbook, Volume 2" from a team mate who swiped it from a CA contact years ago. Their library should still have a lot of that stuff. I still remember pissing off a bunch of "do-gooders" when we described ourselves as "Peace Corps With Guns". Way too much fun jerking their chains. Nice thread, I hadn't thought about most of this stuff in years.
I'll have to look for that book. That's a good idea, I'll look for that when I get back to work.

I'm going to add some of the PDF files to my Book. Some really good info and prints.
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