Be Prepared

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Do not hijack my thread...I believe that we were discussing what a beginner should acquire for weapons and basic defensive planning.
TR

I have learned the weapon is the easy part. I know TR has mentioned training several times in this thread, but recently working with a true beginner has pounded home how much is involved in conferring even minimum levels of proficiency. Safe handling, loading/unloading the specific firearm, immediate action drills, "use the safety, damnit", "Prone, what's prone?" Sheesh. After that, cleaning and lubricating has to be addressed, storage, etc.

Next you have the whole blow-up-the-water jug demonstration, discussion of cover vs. concealment, and convincing the new shooter that his sheetrock and aluminum siding, and then the neighbor's siding and sheetrock, are no barrier to a bullet. No, the cowboy shooting the whiskey bottle and leaving intact the mirror behind it is NOT how things work in real life. Accounting for every round in a suburban setting is daunting.

All this before sight picture, exhale halfway squeeze, etc. And then impressing on him that this is a perishable skill and it's his responsibility as a gun owner to practice.

Finally (this should actually be firstly) there is working out beforehand the morality of using the firearm. What are the ROE? Under everyday conditions, civil disorder, SHTF?

I haven't taken the NRA course since the seventh grade, but that seems to be a reasonable place for the beginner to start. After that, 'enough' range time to achieve minimal proficiency. I recently defined that as placing ten consecutive rounds into a paper plate offhand at 25 yards. Weak, I know, but I ran out of patience. I figured it was good enough of a start to move forward on his own.

Sorry, this is nothing new to you guys, the Army takes 18 year old newbies and teaches them how to shoot every day. After easily moving my daughter from .22 rimfire to an AR, I guess I forgot what a foundation she was building on.

I'd be interested in hearing how others define minimum acceptable proficiency in a newbie.

[x SF med]

Due to the area of the country where I live, I stick with edged or blunt weapons (blunt being short batons/nunchukau, staffs, baseball bats, cars). The hoops one has to jump through to own bullet launchers in NY/NJ are more than I need to go through, plus the registration process allows for LE to check firearms should something happen in my area. I think battlefield acquisition for firearms would be my best bet here. After an initial E&E, of course.

[JGarcia]

I concur!

Originally Posted by The Reaper
As far as scenarios go, I would limit engagement to how to defend your property, then to defending your residence, and finally to personal defense.

A disproportionate number of us are well versed in firearms, and different forms of ass kicking. Can we spend some more time focusing on what steps we can take to defend: Property, then Home, then Self & Others?

I suppose the first thing to do is to have a plan, especially in keeping with the title "Be Prepared." What criteria should we think about when planning defense of property? How long do we defend the property? At what point do we fall back to a final defensive position within a residence?

Or is it better to examine each as separate incidents?

What I mean is, should we examine a scenario to defend our property from likely offenses? And then examine scenarios to defend homes or residences against offenses? (such as, burglary, fire, vandalism, or intruder, societal break down, etc.?).

Militarily speaking, we all have some level of familiarity with the MDMP. To begin we need a mission, enemy or threat situation, intelligence preparation, current environment, etc. Right? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

Here is my "theory" on weapon confiscation buy us LEO's.

First, There isn't enough of us in the country to go door to door asking for your weapons based on the ATFE's "yellow" Forms.

Secondly, I really believe that a small percentage of the FFL's in this country would burn, misplace, or something else via "God's will" would happen to them.

Thirdly, This is the way I believe will really happen,is that there would probaly be a "Grace Period" in which you have a certain amount of time to turn in that 22 caliber", scoped "B-52 Destroyer". After that, you would be subject to a search and seizure with prison time in the Federal system making little rocks out of big rocks.

Thus, what I stated before in my last post goes into effect.

We all know that when a disaster strikes hard, my list of people in the last post can be further broke down into the "Haves" and the "Have Not's".

[The Reaper]

I would look at my goals and priorities, examine the most serious contingencies, then the most likely.

It would be prudent to determine what you plan to do for each of the major scenarios, with likely branches/alternatives, and time lines for each. As you could see from any of the major hurricanes last year, trying to evacuate late, or acquire supplies after the fact, is a difficult proposition.

Once I had plans developed to my satisfaction, I would attempt to prioritize my efforts. Buying hurricane shutters, a battery of firearms, and a year's supply of food simultaneously would strain many of our budgets. Decide what your most critical needs are after planning, and acquire them sequentially as possible. Pay particular attention to life support and multi-use items.

As far as defense planning goes, there are a multitude of questions which you must answer before proceeding. Will you stay or go elsewhere? Are you alone, or with responsibility for others? How many will be able/willing to fight to defend themselves? Will you help others, or reserve your resources for yourself? Are you willing to kill others to defend your life? Your property? What sort of property are you defending? An apartment? A multi-thousand acre ranch? How long do you need to hold it before you expect relief? Will your neighbors be reliable to help, or part of the problem? Will you need security 24/7? Are there also weapons needed for hunting, or are they for defense only? Do dangerous game or large predators live in your area? Do you have (or can you create) natural barriers like bodies of water, steep drops, hedgerows, fences, etc.? Do you live near a major population center or transportation artery? Is your dwelling subject to natural disasters? Being burned? What degree of societal breakdown would you accept before initiating your plan?

Less than lethal would include chemicals, impact weapons, electrical devices, etc. These are almost all contact range weapons, some, like chemicals may give a few meters range. Everyone should have these in their home, vehicle, workplace, etc. and on them, if legal.

Edged weapons are fine for close in, but most require training to use effectively, unless you are only going to posture with them. They do not require reloads or batteries, can be inexpensive, and some are legal to carry when other alternatives are not. They are also good tools when used for their intended purpose. They are not going to reach very far out and touch anyone, like on the other side of your property (or your door). Many people expect to be in a knife on knife fight, like in the movies. That is a very rare occurrence. Usually one or more combatants will have a better weapon than the other. Like a gun. Shame to be the one who brought the knife to the gunfight.

A handgun is a personal defense weapon for close range defense (0-50 meters or less for most people) when carrying a long gun is impractical. It is compact but fires a round of relatively low power. Revolvers are simple, easy to use, and among the most reliable firearms available and can fire a variety of ammunition types, but are limited in capacity and can be slow reloading. Autoloaders or pistols are faster shooting and reloading, most are higher capacity than revolvers, but can be finnicky, difficult to employ effectively, and can handle only a limited variety of ammunition. I prefer to keep to .357 Magnum or larger in revolvers, 9x19 or larger in defensive handguns, and .380 or larger in hideout or back-up pistols.

A shotgun is also a short range weapon with tremendous power but it is bulky, the ammo is heavy, and reloads are slow. It comes in a variety of operating systems, some better than others. Accuracy can be problematic due to the shot spread, range is limited, 0-35m. or so with shot, up to 100m. with slugs. Shotguns are best for putting as lot of hits on a few targets in a hurry, up close. The most popular gauges are 12 and 20ga.

Rifles and carbines are longer range weapons from zero to 1000m. or more. They are very effective up close as well, as long as there is room to maneuver them. For that reason, many prefer short barreled weapons for vehicle or indoor employment. They fire a variety of ammunition, most significantly more powerful than handguns and with the attendant blast and recoil. For that reason, they can also be harder to manage, though they are superior as long as size and weight are not an issue. You can add optics to make it faster or easier to engage targets. They have a variety of actions, from muzzle loading single shots through fully automatic weapons. Rifle rounds also tend to overpenetrate. As with the handguns and shotguns, it is important to select a round that will accomplish the intended purpose while not being excessively difficult for the shooter to manage. Military calibers (like 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, .30-'06, etc.) make ammo easier to come by and also usually have good availability as they are adopted as hunting rounds.

For beginners defending small areas, I recommend a shotgun be the first acquisition after less than lethal weapons. A pistol is a good second purchase, but will usually cost significantly more money than most defensive type shotguns and require much more training to become proficient. Beginners should definitely get training from a competent source, be it the NRA courses, shooting clubs, or concealed carry classes. Note that the class is the beginning of the training, you must follow through with it to get the full potential value. Due to penetration issues, I would only recommend rifles for those who have larger real estate to defend and who will take the time to learn to shoot one properly.

Intermediate users or those with larger property should have a pistol, preferably a military caliber autoloader and a military type rifle or carbine in a military caliber per shooter. Note that if you live in an area where you have the sort of silly legislators who arbitrarily ban firearms based on physical characteristics, rifles like the M1 Garand, an SKS, or an SMLE are still usually legal and are highly effectve, in the right hands. A shotgun or two may be desirable, especially if the weapon is also going to be used to gather food, though the weight of the ammo makes it a poor second to anything else for that purpose. A scoped bolt action rifle may be a useful addition for gathering food or if the property requires longer range engagements. A rimfire is a nice addition as the ammo is cheap, it has a low noise signature, and is great for pest control and clean-up work.

Advanced users do not need me to tell them what to get, they already know and most likely already have it.

Don't forget ammo (including training), spare mags, loaders, cleaning supplies, cases, and spare parts, if necessary. I would like to have at least 1000 rounds per military type rifle, 500 per handgun, 250 per shotgun, and 250 for precision or hunting rifles. Magazines are cheap right now after being very expensive for ten years. I like at least seven good, fresh, issue-type mags per pistol and military rifle. Skip the aftermarket junk. The time may come when you cannot obtain them, and they are essential for functioning firearms. If you cannot carry your basic load, consider some sort of LBE. It does not have to be a $600 HSLD vest, a $35 set of used military LBE from the surplus store is fine.

If you are going to employ this force in less than a full breakdown of civil authority (LA Riots, New Orleans, etc.) you need to consider the legal implications of lethal force. Shooting a guy at 1000 yards, or even 50 yards with a pipe in his hand, in your yard, or outside your house is going to make you vulnerable to extended evaluation by our civil and criminal system. Make sure that you understand when and where you may carry and what the restrictions are on the employment of deadly force. It is as important to know when to use the weapon as it is to know how to use it.

Hope this helps.

TR

[7624U]

Bump

Advanced user
500 rds rifle 7.62x51
250 rds .357 / 150 rds .44
5000 rds .22 LR

staying mobile is my plan of action.

[dr. mabuse]

Thanks TR. Excellent thread as expected.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 7624U

Bump

Advanced user
.......

Advanced user.

While I am quite comfortable in my home a serious breakdown in law and order would see a quick move 1 mile over to my in-laws house, with all the equipment, that can be moved. Food, Arsenal and emergency supplies get loaded in the truck first.

They have a brick house with higher windows, window overlooking the driveway, larger lot with better fields of fire/observation and a bit more out of the way. Plus plenty of room for the extended family and full freezers . They have the real food and I have all the emergency food.

They have their own Arsenal, have CC Licenses and are dead shots with pistols.

Many hands make for light work, and shorter shifts at night.

Pete

Pete,

excellent point made by stating "a brick house". Few too many of us have paper thin walls which allow a .22caliber LR to penetrate! Anythin in the .30 caliber and above will probably penetrate two or more walls like a hot knife through butter. You also must take into affect your FOF's like Pete and TR so stated. Defending one's home and family is allot of planning, planning and planning. I also like how TR has eloquently placed each category of weapons in thier PROPER place on the distance scale of usage.

To "bug out" or to not "bug out" that is the question. If you have members in your family that are incapacitated by illness then your chances of "bugging out" becomes a matter of debate, especially when invalids and the very old are in question. Guys with such persons in their families are handicapped when it comes to moving far distances. You need to decide right now if it is worth moving before it happens, during it, or staying put and having a plan to defend your castle.

On a side note, I know of allot of cops who have built homes as far away as possible in order to be away from the masses in a SHTF scenario. Some have even bought land near the Alleghenies in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Land in West Virginia is dirt cheap if you don't mind owning a mountain and the high ground and views for miles. Just my .02 worth.

This an excellent thread I hope that it stays alive! Allot to be learned here by the QP's!

[7624U]

Originally Posted by Pete

Advanced user.

While I am quite comfortable in my home a serious breakdown in law and order would see a quick move 1 mile over to my in-laws house, with all the equipment, that can be moved. Food, Arsenal and emergency supplies get loaded in the truck first.

They have a brick house with higher windows, window overlooking the driveway, larger lot with better fields of fire/observation and a bit more out of the way. Plus plenty of room for the extended family and full freezers . They have the real food and I have all the emergency food.

They have their own Arsenal, have CC Licenses and are dead shots with pistols.

Many hands make for light work, and shorter shifts at night.

Pete

Pete how many trips would it take to move all your stuff that you need from your house to your in-laws? and what would you sacrafice if lets say you could only make 2 trips.
And do you guys have any way to power the freezers when the utilitys go off.
Meat will go bad fast. unless you start salting it right away or smoke it.

Im sort of at a transition right now I have a house but would not stick around if things got bad,
I would load up the truck and small camper and move. to a wilderness area, mainly as a squater hunter type guy after my 3 months food ran out if the emergency lasted that long.
I would also set up a still if i could mainly for barter and trade if needed.

The biggest problem I have is Fuel and traveling on roads because I have to assume roads will be blocked by.
A. Military or LEO's
B. local residents that dont want strangers passing threw thier town.
C. Gangs of Looters and Thugs wanting toll to pass, or worst take everything you have.

Any thoughts on Moble Survival Vs Stadic Defence. good and bad of both.
I have my Idea's but want to hear others.
Pete's was the first post of this type we know what his plan is.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 7624U

Pete how many trips would it take to move all your stuff that you need from your house to your in-laws? and what would you sacrafice if lets say you could only make 2 trips.......

With a full size truck and mini-van the generator (for the freezers), all the food, and all the guns/ammo can go in them. Cloths, glowing box (so I can tall to you guys), things of value/pictures can go in the SUV and car. Nice to have 4 drivers for the next few years. I'd come back with the truck and get every bit of tools, nails, scrap wood, boards, canvas and tarps I could pull out of the house, garage and storage building.

The route is through a subdivision so I see no great worry there. Just those four vehicles have 62 gallons of gas while the in-laws have another 32 gallons. 5 gallons in the generator and two 5 gallon cans gives us a total of over 100 gallons of gas for the generator. I stress to the females to keep the vehicle tanks full. If it gets close to a half tank fill it up. Generally when I jump in one of their cars the gas light comes on and they say "Don't worry, we have at least enough for 20 miles or so."

Plan to drain gas from the less useful cars/van first keeping one high MPG car for zipping in and out if required and keeping the two pickups full if bug out to the beach house is required. Hate to go there but it is low population most of the time and is close to a fresh water source and a food source, the waterway & ocean.

I see all of the above as kind of a worst case deal. As in a "few days" of the world/state/city situation going down hill. A storm would hit you instantly if you blew off the weather reports.

I see something like the bird flue taking a few days to get rolling. The first day would see the panic buying at the stores. The second day everybody would be sitting at home grumpy because they didn't get their fair share. The third day all those people get together and say "Lets take our fair share from those that have it."

Can you see trying to get your neighbor to move in with you so you can burn his house down to clear a field of fire? Man, talk about end times. Of the five houses around my in-laws four are frame and all have retired couples living in them.

So want does the average person think about and see as they drive around the neighborhood? Dang, it kinda' gets back to that SA thing.

Pete

[Pete]

This thread is not to be taken by the casual reader as that we are a bunch of nuts locked inside our homes and shooting at every UPS man who stops a truck in the driveway.

How many casual readers can walk out to the power box of their home and cut power on Friday afternoon and make it to Monday about 6:00AM before you turn it back on?

No cheating by going out to eat, or to the Mall and movies. Stay there on your property for 60 hours. Can you eat, have lights and can you make yourself comfortable? Cut power and the garage door opener don't work anyway.

Try it and report back to this thread.

Think of it as an adventure.

Pete

[x SF med]

My Bug out plan is to head away from the major population center close to me, toward the boat. My diesel vehicle gets 44 mpg if driven hard (80+ mph), I can get close to 50 mpg if I drive at or under 65 mph - At speed I can make it from the Lincoln tunnel in NJ to Asheville NC on one tank of fuel - plus it's pretty inconspicuous, a hatchback that will hold 2 people, plus attendant gear for a close to 2week 'trip'.

I'm still fitting out the boat, but if it fits in the car, it will fit in the boat, a few trips in the zodiac, but it'll get there. Since it's a sailboat - in most cases fuel is a secondary concern. Solar panels trickle charge the batteries.

[Cincinnatus]

x_sf_med,

VW Golf?

All (or at least all civies),

Rehearsal is important. We've had sev'l power outages with the heavy rain and resultant flooding up here. We've had no real problems as we have extra food, batteries, crank radio, FAK, lots of lights, etc., but in every case when reviewing what we did, I found things that could have been done better.

This is given the tools and supplies at hand. Simple organizational things, not "Oh, I wish I had XXX." Rehearsal would have addressed these.

HTH

[x SF med]

Das ist richtig, VW Golf GLS TDI. It'll run a buck and a quarter (3.8k rpm)without breaking a sweat too.... too bad it's an auto, with a manual I could probably (if I drove the speed limit) get 55+ mpg out of it. 90 hp, 165 ftlb low end torque (powerband 1.8k-3.6k rpm, 17 lb turbo kick at 1.93k rpm).

Gotta love German engineering in an escape pod - speed, efficiency, and carry space. Doesn't hurt that I had to take more driving instruction while in the military than is good for any one person either.....