Ukraine, Venezuela, United States

**Team Sergeant** · 02-24-2014, 09:43

Ukraine, Venezuela, & the United States, what do they have in common?

The corrupt progressive/socialist/communist "left" is learning the hard way that corrupt socialist governments do not work.

Venezuela is the next "Ukraine" and then I suspect Americans will be spilling blood in the streets soon enough for the same reasons.

(Or knocking out more substations.

)

**Box** · 02-24-2014, 10:12

That could never happen here in the US...
...we are too civilized and metropolitan

JSMosby · 02-24-2014, 11:40

when they get their "monitors" in the press, regulate the internet and social media, and mandate kill switches on smart phones.....the regime can do whatever it wants. Who will know?

**Airbornelawyer** · 02-24-2014, 14:08

I don't think Ukraine fits well in this paradigm. The divide there is more ethnic/nationalist than economic. Yanukovych's power base was among ethnic Russians and other elements whose model is Putin's form of neo-Bolshevik fascism. But the opposition, especially among western Ukrainians, generally favored EU-style Eurosocialism. Social democrats may be preferable to pure socialists, but hardly anyone in Ukraine is pushing classical liberal values.

Surf n Turf · 02-24-2014, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

Social democrats may be preferable to pure socialists, but hardly anyone in Ukraine is pushing classical liberal values.

AirborneLawyer,

Don't you think that with a push for a Ukrainian version of the 2nd Amendment things might be in a state of flux.

Currently I see three factions -- Ukrainian Oligarchs, Socialist (various stripes), and fascists needing to find partners for a coalition.

YMMV

SnT

**Airbornelawyer** · 02-24-2014, 20:12

Politicians and oligarchs seek power and profit, and capitalize on divisions that exist within a society (though some are adept at manufacturing such divides too).

The ethnic Russian vs. ethnic Ukrainian divide is drawing the most attention, especially with regard to the future of Crimea. But there are also divides among ethnic Ukrainians. Ukrainians from the far west of the country tend to be the most "Western", European-oriented. Coincidently, they were part of the Austrian, later Austro-Hungarian Empire which has affected their social, economic and other values differently from other Ukrainians who have been under Moscow's thumb for centuries. This area, part of Austrian Galiicia, is also divided from other parts of Ukraine on religious grounds. It is the home of most Ukrainian Catholics, while most other Ukrainians who profess a faith are Eastern Orthodox, who are themselves divided between those loyal to the Patriarch in Kyiv and those under Moscow.

SFOC0173 · 02-25-2014, 05:05

http://www.debka.com/article/23704/R...Ukraine-border

ddoering · 02-25-2014, 06:24

I saw that one coming. I wonder if O will issue a terse response..... Perhaps he could send the wicked witch of the west to mediate. It will make her look more presidential.

**Airbornelawyer** · 02-25-2014, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddoering

I saw that one coming. I wonder if O will issue a terse response..... Perhaps he could send the wicked witch of the west to mediate. It will make her look more presidential.

Debka is not the most reliable source, but it would not be surprising that Russia would move forces closer to Ukraine. The situation there, especially in Crimea, could easily and quickly spin out of control, and even if Russia had the purest of motives, it would be prudent of them to prepare for the worst. And of course, they have far from the purest of motives.

FWIW, even if it were Romney or Bush or Reagan in office, there is little the US can do, given Russia's proximity to and interests in Ukraine, and our lack of any real leverage over Putin. Though the reason we have so little leverage at this point is this Administration's fault as its infamous "reset" sent the message to Russia's neighbors that the US could not be relied on. A message which resonates elsewhere, as Iraq accommodates itself to Iran's status as regional superpower, as Afghans prepare for the resurgence of the Taliban, and as the Japanese, South Koreans, Taiwanese, FIlipinos and others in East Asia evaluate how to respond to Chinese aggression. And coming full circle, no doubt the Venezuelan opposition recalls Obama's gladhanding of Chavez and weak response to Maduro. Those pictures of Obama laughing it up with Chavez are all over the place, but the only pictures I can find of Maduro and Obama together, and thus likely the only pictures Venezuelans can find of the two, show Obama as practically a supplicant as Maduro stays on the stage and forces Obama to look up to him.

Hillary is not going to involve herself in anything that will draw attention to her actual failed foreign policy record rather than the illusion of competence her handlers and the mainstream media have manufactured.

**The Reaper** · 02-25-2014, 10:02

Well said.

TR

orion5 · 02-25-2014, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddoering

I saw that one coming. I wonder if O will issue a terse response..... Perhaps he could send the wicked witch of the west to mediate. It will make her look more presidential.

One of my favorite comments seen on the internet recently was from Russian chess champ Garry Kasparov:

"Obama could sell his red lines on eBay as new. They are all in mint condition, never used!"