11-07-2006, 01:35
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#1
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Asset
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pasco, WA
Posts: 4
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19th and 20th Groups for domestic anti-terror?
Usually I just sit back and read, but on the way back from MEPS this weekend I was talking with my recruiter (who used to be with 1st and 19th Group), and I brought up terrorism on U.S. soil. A while ago I was reading a thread on this forum about how domestic law enforcement isn't exactly up to par on dealing with terrorists entering a high school, or some secondary education facility and taking hostages. Local police, SWAT, HRT, etc, were all talked about; their advantages and disadvantages, and how Posse Comitatus doesn't allow military units like an ODA trained, experienced, and set up to take care of threats like that to be used, though they'd probably be much better at it. My question is if Posse Comitatus would apply to the 19th and 20th Groups being used, as they are a "state owned" entity, being part of the National Guard. The National Guard, when it's operating in its state according to Title 32 of the U.S. Code, is not subject to the prohibition on civilian law enforcement, correct? Federal military forces operate pursuant to Title 10 of the U.S. Code, and National Guard is only considered such when it is federalized. Again, this is all as I understand it... The President could temporarily suspend the law, allowing a federal military entity to enforce civilian law, but if those two SF Groups are state owned anyway, wouldn't that circumvent that requirement, allowing a Governor to send in well trained professional soldiers?
I did a search of this site and Google, looking for the terms Posse Comitatus, 19th Group, terrorism, etc, but didn't find anything I was looking for. Do any of you QP's or LEO's have any thoughts on the use the 19th and 20th Groups in domestic anti-terrorism efforts, the legality of such, or the feasibility of such an option?
Last edited by z3rologic; 11-07-2006 at 01:42.
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z3rologic is offline
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11-07-2006, 04:28
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#2
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,045
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That's nice, z3ro.
Now go read the stickies, and post an introduction in the intro thread before you post any more. Don't post again for 30 days.
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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Kyobanim is offline
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11-07-2006, 08:42
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by z3rologic
Usually I just sit back and read, but on the way back from MEPS this weekend I was talking with my recruiter (who used to be with 1st and 19th Group), and I brought up terrorism on U.S. soil. A while ago I was reading a thread on this forum about how domestic law enforcement isn't exactly up to par on dealing with terrorists entering a high school, or some secondary education facility and taking hostages. Local police, SWAT, HRT, etc, were all talked about; their advantages and disadvantages, and how Posse Comitatus doesn't allow military units like an ODA trained, experienced, and set up to take care of threats like that to be used, though they'd probably be much better at it. My question is if Posse Comitatus would apply to the 19th and 20th Groups being used, as they are a "state owned" entity, being part of the National Guard. The National Guard, when it's operating in its state according to Title 32 of the U.S. Code, is not subject to the prohibition on civilian law enforcement, correct? Federal military forces operate pursuant to Title 10 of the U.S. Code, and National Guard is only considered such when it is federalized. Again, this is all as I understand it... The President could temporarily suspend the law, allowing a federal military entity to enforce civilian law, but if those two SF Groups are state owned anyway, wouldn't that circumvent that requirement, allowing a Governor to send in well trained professional soldiers?
I did a search of this site and Google, looking for the terms Posse Comitatus, 19th Group, terrorism, etc, but didn't find anything I was looking for. Do any of you QP's or LEO's have any thoughts on the use the 19th and 20th Groups in domestic anti-terrorism efforts, the legality of such, or the feasibility of such an option?
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I think you need to do some more reading and follow our procedures here.
Then do as the nice Mod suggested.
BTW, your suggestion to use a Guard unit as a CT/HR force is ludicrous for a number of reasons we won't be going into here.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-07-2006, 10:00
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#4
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
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Quote:
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Then do as the nice Mod suggested.
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That's funny.  I've been up all night with strep throat and taking pain killers and planned on saying more but thought I'd better wait and sober up before typing.
__________________
"Are you listening or just waiting to talk?"
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
Optimus Prime
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Kyobanim is offline
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11-07-2006, 11:35
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#5
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Asset
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pasco, WA
Posts: 4
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I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth on this site...
Respectfully, Kyobanim, I reffer you to http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...postcount=1672. I have thoroughly read the stickies for each and every forum I've read through, and I presumed I was ok to post. Other than this post to direct you to my intro, I will not post again for 30 days, my apologies.
The Reaper, if my suggestion was in fact ludicrous then that's what I wanted to know. I was hoping for the reasons as my research wasn't conclusive, but thank you for your time.
Last edited by z3rologic; 11-07-2006 at 11:46.
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z3rologic is offline
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11-07-2006, 11:49
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#6
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,045
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by z3rologic
I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth on this site...
Respectfully, Kyobanim, I reffer you to http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...postcount=1672. I have thoroughly read the stickies for each and every forum I've read through, and I presumed I was ok to post. Other than this post to direct you to my intro, I will not post again for 30 days, my apologies.
The Reaper, if my suggestion was in fact ludicrous then that's what I wanted to know. I was hoping for the reasons as my research wasn't conclusive, but thank you for your time. |
Smart ass attitude will get you pretty far here. Keep it up.
__________________
"Are you listening or just waiting to talk?"
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
Optimus Prime
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Kyobanim is offline
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11-07-2006, 12:26
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In transit somewhere
Posts: 4,044
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by z3rologic
I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth on this site...
Respectfully, Kyobanim, I reffer you to http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...postcount=1672. I have thoroughly read the stickies for each and every forum I've read through, and I presumed I was ok to post. Other than this post to direct you to my intro, I will not post again for 30 days, my apologies.
The Reaper, if my suggestion was in fact ludicrous then that's what I wanted to know. I was hoping for the reasons as my research wasn't conclusive, but thank you for your time. |
Zero Logic - you are living up to your screen name. Prepare for incoming fire from multiple sources, I have funny feeling you need the warning.
__________________
In the business of war, there is no invariable stategic advantage (shih) which can be relied upon at all times.
Sun-Tzu, "The Art of Warfare"
Hearing, I forget. Seeing, I remember. Writing (doing), I understand. Chinese Proverb
Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key. ~TR
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x SF med is offline
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11-07-2006, 12:54
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#8
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Asset
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 28
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z3rologic, apologies on my part, took your previous post as being a bit of a wise-ass.
Last edited by cj13; 11-08-2006 at 10:01.
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cj13 is offline
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11-07-2006, 15:16
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#9
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Asset
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pasco, WA
Posts: 4
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Kyobanim - My apology was meant to be sincere. I didn't mean to come across as a smart ass, and I'm sorry I did. I wanted you to know that I had indeed posted an intro, and was directing you and others to it. I have read the stickies applicable to this thread, and stated so. I don't know why it was assumed I hadn't posted an intro. Since I had I thought I would be able to post without receiving fire. Since I posted an intro a while ago, would you agree that your first post was slightly innaccurate and misleading to the rest of the people that posted? As a QP, you did have my respect, and I did mean it when I said "Respectfully, I reffer you to (my intro)." Somehow it was overlooked, and I wanted to correct that, hoping my question could be more fully addressed. Again, my sincere apologies for statements that were considered out of line.
The Reaper - Honestly, thank you for your response. I was looking for a confirmation or rejection of what I was thinking, you provided that. Thank you for not just telling me to follow Kyobanim's advice and leaving at that, your answer was appreciated.
cj13 - Understood
Last edited by z3rologic; 11-08-2006 at 11:25.
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z3rologic is offline
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11-08-2006, 07:36
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#10
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,045
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No drugs in me today. This looks like a case of miss-interpretation on my part. Appologies to z3ro for this.
__________________
"Are you listening or just waiting to talk?"
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
Optimus Prime
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Kyobanim is offline
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