Fallujah - Sunni Triangle

[Surgicalcric]

Cuncur. A move would be in order.

[Airbornelawyer]

As I noted in regard to the upcoming anniversary, events in Fallujah should not be viewed in a vacuum. One reason for not going in until all the pieces are in place is to not have a repeat of April 2003, when a small number of paratroopers found themselves facing a large mob, and had neither the preparation or the resources to separate the agitators from the crowd.

Another thing to keep in mind when planning how to deal with the city: while our overall strategy for Iraq has been to try to make the various factions in the country - Sunni and Shi'ite Arab, Kurd, Turkmen, etc. - act like happy campers to each other, in this region we should be developing the intel and resources to play the Sunni tribes against each other. Saddam and the Ba'ath favored the Sunnis over other Iraqis, but within Sunni-land, they favored certain tribes, such as Saddam's own Tikritis, over others. There are bound to be plenty of Sunni Arabs looking for a little payback too.

The Rawi clan, for example, may have been Ba'athists and dislike Americans (Gen. Sayfuddin Fulayyih Hassan Taha ar-Rawi was the Jack of Clubs), but they hate the Tikritis. Within the Tikritis also were clans out of Saddam's favor at various times who may have scores to settle. In both the short and the long run, these rivalries may be worth taking advantage of (they also played a role in Saddam's betrayal and capture).

[D9 (RIP)]

I could see the value of the "play the tribes off against one another" approach if we were in a position of weakness. As it is, I don't see why a more assertive, martial approach along the lines of how they pacified Axis cities in WWII wouldn't work better.

Playing the tribes against one another would only seem to reinforce tribalism, which I think is part of the problem, and would probably involve pragmatic concessions to set these groups up against one another we may come to regret later.

[Solid]

IMH (and relatively uneducated) O, allowing tribes to attack each other without losing utter control of the area would be difficult, especially in an environment where families have traditional feuds (this is what I've heard, at least), and escalated tribal rivalries are likely to be passed down through the generations. It seems that a 'snowball effect' would occur.

IMO, at least.

Solid
EDITED- whoops! didn't see D9's post.

[Smokin Joe]

I sort of disagree with you Solid. In that you could use the rivilary between tribes to your advantage but on a limited scale. Use the intel they provide to you about who did what, granted they may be lieing there asses off but collect humint from a couple different tribes. I bet collective you come up with a good list of "usual suspects" Granted its not concrete evidence but its a good place to start.

Combine that with knowing the people in the mobs were not trucked in (atleast not that I know of). So they most likely walked in. Now be reasonable about your distance in determining how far one could/would walk to be apart of this demonstration. Combine that with the rumors you collect from other tribes, and I'll bet a dollar to a dime that you come up with a great idea on where these little f*ckers hang out and or live. Then go in and mercilessly deliver the STICK. Then leave calling cards stating that if this shit happens again the retaliation will be worse. I.E. we will not only kill you but every member of your family.

Although the last part about killing there family would most likely be a lie.

Just my .02 cents

[Airbornelawyer]

Here is an article from last July on the Iraqi Sunni Arab tribes and their loyalties: http://www.hnn.us/comments/14860.html I only gave it a cursory overview, but it appears to touch on a number of issues worth knowing in dealing with that region of Iraq. It does indicate that Fallujah is a stronghold of the Dulaym tribe. The 10 of clubs, Latif Nussayif al-Jasim ad-Dulaymi, captured last June, was from this tribe.

[Bill Harsey]

NDD, You are correct about Col. Applegate. If I learned anything from him it was that the study and control of mobs was a craft unto itself. The political implications always weighed heavy on the choice of action. I don't think human nature has changed much since the cold war days. That said, so far I read nothing here I disagree with. Remember, just a knifemaker here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Remember, just a knifemaker here.

That's akin to saying the Team Sergeant is "just" a competent pistol shot, The Reaper is "just" an SF Trooper, Longrange is "just" a marksman, Greenhat is "just" an oppressor of the proletariat, I am "just" a communis...WAIT!

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
That's akin to saying the Team Sergeant is "just" a competent pistol shot, The Reaper is "just" an SF Trooper, Longrange is "just" a marksman, Greenhat is "just" an oppressor of the proletariat, I am "just" a communis...WAIT!

LOL!

[Solid]

Look! It's Sacamuelas trying to dance! LOL NDD

Smokin Joe: I didn't consider the use of tribal rivalries for intelligence. When it comes to creating 'regulated' small tribal wars, however, IMHO such wars would become difficult to control.

Solid

[echoes]

Originally posted by The Reaper
[B...I would not be beyond using bait to get them to attempt the same action again, and then pile on.

I suspect that if you did that a couple of times, the number of people who would attempt the hit would drop through losses, and the groups who would mutilate the bodies would lean through Darwinian selection that it was not a smart thing to do.

How about a remotely controlled vehicle with an explosive payload? Sort of a "Q-Ship".

Just a thought.

TR [/B]

Sir, I have a crazy idea, but it could work?
Just use me as bait!!! Hell, I'm single, lightweight, and will travel in full body paint!

Those Falluja pigs would never expect a devil possesed looking blonde woman to come screeching though their streets...just drop me out of a chopper, and once I get their attention, WHAM!
You Guys show up and blow them all back to the stoneage!

I am dead serious! If You need some unconventional bait, just let me know, and I will be there. The least a little civilian like me could do for what They did to Our own!

[QRQ 30]

I had mentioned snipers but, I just heard from a man who had talked to troops in Iraq and who have returned from Iraq and he says that without a doubt, the one thing that will cause all Iraqi to shit their pants then drop everything and run is the M-1 Abrams.

Perhaps what they need is an armored company or larger to roll right through Fallujah. I haven't experienced it but apparently the fire power of the Abrahms is truly awsome.

[NousDefionsDoc]

In Panama, it was the AC 130. They begged us not to call the "infra-rojo". Of course they never saw an Abrams.

[Solid]

Listening to first-hand accounts of tanker experiences in the invasion of baghdad, tanks might have some difficulty operating within the city, even with Bradley and Infantry support. At least Fallujah is relatively squared, as opposed to the Mog's haphazard design.

Solid

[QRQ 30]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
In Panama, it was the AC 130. They begged us not to call the "infra-rojo". Of course they never saw an Abrams.

[SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1]

I guess I'm showing my FOGdom. The Panama riots I referred to occured in 1964.At that time I don't believe even "Piff the Magic Dragon" (AC-47) had been put into service,

As for haphazard street layout, the reason Europaen streets tend to be so crooked was to cut down on fields of fire.