OK, let's talk about the Wall

[Roguish Lawyer]

I see it's just me and the Israeli guys on the board. Tell me what you think about the wall, Sharon's plan and Likud's rejection of it.

Others can join in later if they want.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Earth to danjam and hoepoe!

PING!

Ugh. Damned airline lost my luggage and I'm sitting here waiting for it with no one on the board. NDD, finish that job up so you can get back to where you belong. LOL

[hoepoe]

Hiay RL

We work too you know!! LOL

In the last month, thw wall prevented 11 suicide bombings. Since the wall has been built, suicides bobmbers have only struck where there is no wall. Pretty self explanatory, no?

Sharons plan is excellent, the only mistake he made was holding a party refferendum and not a country wide refferendum where he would have one landslide.

We have no bussiness in Gaza, i've been there, so has Danjam,mbut we need to move out.

If all the manpower used inside Gaza was used on a solid border, we'de be much better off. Ok, so the Plas will build an army, and get weapons freely, but thats no justification to stay there.

Whether we like it or not, the Pals are now a people and i don;t doubt that terror will continue once they are autonimous, the should have a state.

We should also leave the West Back ofd the Jordan, true there are many Jewish religious places there, but as far as i'm concerned, my belief is what makes me a Jew, not a grave of a prophet. I do not think losing more lives is worth it to defend a grave. Call me stupid, just the way i feel. Defending my country, my home and loved ones, as well as my heritige, ok, but not a land that is majority Palestinian, we have no bussiness there.

Israels buggest mistake was holding onto that land, granted we offered it to Egypt and Jordan post '67 war, but they didn;t want it either.

The Likud has greatly dissaponted me and made such a rash, stuipid move by rejecting Sharons plan.
I belive, only a man of war, a man that has killed and seen killed can truly understand the perception of sacrifice for peace.

One must not underestimate Sharon, he is no fool and a strong leader.

i need to eat now, wil lcontinue later.

hoepoe

[hoepoe]

Correction, no, not my bas spelling, but just to point out:

The Wall is actually mainly a fence.

[danjam]

The wall. And Sharon's plan. mmm

Firstly, I think Sharon was wrong to go to his party for a vote. The vote to get out of Gaza.
Having been in that part of the country I say we should have gotten out of there a long time ago. Waste of man power, and lives. If he takes this vote to the general public, then this plan will pass no problem.
Of course the attack and murder of the pregnant mother and her 4 girls did not help Sharon at the time, and this could well have turned the vote around, even though a small percentage of voters did infact vote.

The wall, should be built. I know that it cuts through land etc.. and it is not the prettiest thing in the world, however it is already stopping the terrorists. It saves Israeli lives, and this is a priority for any polititian and a demand by the general public.
For example my last duty was in a nice little area between Jenin and Shchem. (great 4x4 country) Near a village called Tubas. This area has become sort of a funnel, since the wall is blocking terrorist movements from going into Israel proper, so they go towards the Jordanian border...into our hands ;-) or north/south. In other words it is doing it's job.

The possiblity that the wall will become a permanent border in my opinion is very likely. This is going to become a future sore spot diplomatically and contention of this is most probable.

It's funny, maybe not so, however in 1996 the army was already planning for this war, the next one is already known as well.

The settlements in Judea and Shamron, well, I wish we only had nice Israeli's but we don't. Some are just plain old mean, and don't give a flying ... about world opinion. Some are just damn stupid (young and ignorant) And some who believe that what they are doing is right by god. There is going to be hard feelings and source of conflict here for a long time to come.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I think Sharon is being smart. It would be strategically nice to take the West Bank, but there is no morally acceptable way to deal with the population there IMO.

[danjam]

There are a couple of factors (important) that need to be considered.
One, is that Israeli's although the majority are not Synagogue going "religious" Jews, are affected to move toward the "right" when attacked. The mentality is defensive. When we get attacked we fight back, and if no then their is a public backlash for the decision makers. By the "right" I mean that most of the people who are right of center in political matters are religious.
So one is religious and another is combativeness.

The Judea and Shamron (notice I call them this, instead of the "occupied territories" or "West Bank"..) is part of Israel, religiously and historically. I know that Heopoe does not agree with me, however (two jews, three opinions ;-) ) Alot of people think, and believe that the only reason that Jews are not in these a yoreas is because they were kicked out. And now we are back. For example Hebron has been a home to Jews, continuously, If I am not mistaken the only reason why there was a break is because of a killing spree by Arabs.
Some history foru..
In 1929, Arabs murdered 67 men women and children. Under British supervision at the time, Hevron's Arabs chased the rest of the Jews out of the city. "Cleansing it".

You see, history is easily forgotten by many, however the people living there now (Jews) have not forgotten, and they are still pissed about it. The British removed the Jews again in 1936, those that dared to move back again. Abraham is supposed to have been buried there. The prophets made our nation, to not remember them is to, or not honour them is like giving up on our history, and I for one am compelled not to forget history. There is a whole world of debate here... another time perhaps.

Gaza fine, let's get out, Lebanon as well, don't like the way it was done ... but Judea and Sumaria, let's just stop and think about this a while ..

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by danjam
Gaza fine, let's get out, Lebanon as well, don't like the way it was done ... but Judea and Sumaria, let's just stop and think about this a while ..

OK, let's think about it. How do you propose to govern the existing population of this area? It seems to me there are only a few principal options: separate from it, outnumber it, pacify it, contain it, move it or exterminate it. There are significant issues with respect to feasibility and moral acceptability of these options.

[danjam]

Jordan does not want a Palestinian state bordering it. Many a time they will stop terrorist coming into Israel from their side. This is however, at this time. In the future it could be a whole different picture, and if and when the King dies, or gets outed, which can happen, the Jordanian border with a possible Palestinian one would be unacceptable and would be as porous as the Syrian/Iraqi one, if not more so.
Although the trust is arms length. Their military is good, small but good for the most part. If we had to fight them, it would be a tough battle. I don't doubt that we would win, and we do train for the scenario. Hence our presence in Judea/Sumaria is, in my opinion very important.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by danjam
Jordan does not want a Palestinian state bordering it. Many a time they will stop terrorist coming into Israel from their side. This is however, at this time. In the future it could be a whole different picture, and if and when the King dies, or gets outed, which can happen, the Jordanian border with a possible Palestinian one would be unacceptable and would be as porous as the Syrian/Iraqi one, if not more so.
Although the trust is arms length. Their military is good, small but good for the most part. If we had to fight them, it would be a tough battle. I don't doubt that we would win, and we do train for the scenario. Hence our presence in Judea/Sumaria is, in my opinion very important.

I don't question the strategic importance one bit. But you are not answering the question.

[danjam]

You left out, economically. This is the best way in my opinion.

The scenario:
There is a few large settlement blocks, with our own security forces. Most of the areas are, like they were before the war, under Palestinian control. However now it is their country.

Most "outposts" or smaller settlements are taken down.

There would be still a significant Jewish population, remember we are talking about areas that are relatively tiny in actual square milage. Alot of the Jews in the area hire Palestinians to work in agricultural businesses. This is pretty accurate to this date by the way, hence the long checkpoint lines are people coming in and out of Israel proper.

Economically is probably the best choice as well, since there is no way that Israelis will allow a "move it or exterminate it." solution.

[hoepoe]

Danjam, you misundertand me, i agree that thw West bank is historically part of greater Israel, i just feel that we have to change with the times, in other owrds, don;t be correct, be clever!

As far as a comparison in Lebanon, our big mistake was not leaving the way we left, but rather staiybg there so long, we arte making the same mistake here, already have.

Another innacuracy is that you percive all Synagogue going religious Jews as right wingers, big, bad misconception.

I happen to be very friendly with some religious Synagogue going left wingers. Don't forget, sterotyping is a great error to make.

Many of the fa,ilies living in the West Bank are not religious right wing fanatics, but many New Immigrants from both the former USSR as well as North America,that live simply because it's tax free, cheaper and beatiful. i know people that live there.

Most of these are actually willing to leave if offered a good deal by the stae of israel. Gaza has most of the fanatics, one again North Americand and Israelis.

The fence is happening and wil continue to happen along it;s current route unless the US threatens to hold back financial support for Israel.

The pull out wil lgo ahead, the question is when and how, Once arafat goes and new leadership is in place, this may provide for an oppurtunity for a negotioated two sided pullout. But if this takes too long, we need to swallow our ego's cut oue losses and pull out.

Hoepoe

[danjam]

"By the "right" I mean that most of the people who are right of center in political matters are religious. " --quoting my post.

I never said that they were fanatics.

The question of people who are willing to move out is not really a question or area of contention, rather the people who will not move are.

Swollowing egos is definately needed, however leaving without taking into mind that Hizollah said to the Palestinians, that armed aggression will work, were proven correct, is going to haunt us again. A difference in perception however theirs is what counts to them, and this justifies their actions...to them.


Just to add --quoting again my post:
"One, is that Israeli's although the majority are not Synagogue going "religious" Jews, are affected to move toward the "right" when attacked.

[danjam]

Cutting our losses and pulling out will not solve anything, and I personally think it would be bad policy.

[hoepoe]

Ok, right/relogous point understood.

I hate to be the one to breakl it to you, but violence does work.

We left Lebanon and we are leaving the Gaza and West Bank. Just like violence worked in 47 to rid the Brits, just liie violence worked in the US with the Brits, just like violence has worked througout the ages.

Sad, but true.

What we need to do is wake up and make decisions based on what we have today. What we have is a land filled with Palestinians, that is costing us a fortune to contain, a fortune to guard the fools that live there and no strategic benefit at all, anymore.

Pullout now, those that are willing should be relocated, given housing plus relocation grants. Should be as easy as possible for them.

Those that don;t want to, can stay, fuck 'em. I'm not keen to leave my kid without a father to protect these fuckers.

Let the pals fend for themselves, let them go to arafat for education, medicine and all other needs that we allow them here for. If they want to come here, they need a passport and visa.

Increase trade effortts between Israel & Pals should be increased, this would help mend the damage caused from years of conflict.

Don't get me wrong, i don't like them, i just understandm they're here to stay, just like us and they're on our doorstep.

Oh i almost forgot, make arafat be gone.

It is easier to protect a real , defined border, it is easier to fight a real enemy (as in army, not guerilla) if the need be.

Hoepoe