Are we at war with Islam?

Originally posted by Jimbo
A Glance at Democracy in Arab World

The Associated Press

State of democracy in Arab world:

They missed Israel.

[QRQ 30]

Originally posted by Greenhat
They missed Israel.

I don't believe Israel considers itself part of the Arab World nor vice versa. The two are diametrically opposed.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Does what happened in Falleujah change anyone's mind about the question here?

Hightens the resolve.



I don't know about the 'division' suggestion, but this pretty much sums up my view of how things should proceed:


The mailed fist ... where necessary
Published April 2, 2004


The atrocities in Fallujah are raising a wide range of passions in the hearts of Americans -- from the instinct to retreat, to the urge for us to apply crushing, military collective retribution against the locals. All such passions are understandable; none of them are useful. Our objective in Iraq, including Fallujah, is to bring order out of the chaos.
As agents for that chaos, the enemy mobs' best weapon is emotion: Their Dionysian frenzy and orgiastic violence is intended to induce our fear, anger, fury and -- perhaps -- retreat. As agents of order and justice, our response must be Apollonian: measured, ordered, balanced and harmonious. The mailed fist, judiciously applied in cold blood, will surely be part of that measured response. An additional division of troops might well be needed in the Sunni Triangle to dominate the streets in behalf of law and order. We must forcefully and remorselessly assert our authority. But we would be foolish to try to match their emotional outbursts with our own uncontrolled passions.
In Mogadishu, Somalia, we made the mistake of running from such street horrors. We must not, now, make the opposite mistake of excessive retaliatory violence. The correct response is to remain firmly in place -- unmoved and unmovable by the mob. It is by our undoubted strength, by the perceived inevitability of our mission, that we shall prevail. Throughout history, civilization is sustained by the victory of Apollo over Dionysus. We must break the cycle of emotion and irrationality -- not join it.

Originally posted by QRQ 30
I don't believe Israel considers itself part of the Arab World nor vice versa. The two are diametrically opposed.

Nevertheless, a large portion of Israelis are Semites and they share a great deal of culture in common.

[hoepoe]

Good day all

First of, i think the site's great!

Greenhat, you raise an interesting point of view, it is true, many Israelis are indeed Semites, originating from countries such as Iraq, Iran, Morroco, Egypt, Syria and so on and so forth.

However, being a Jew is not only a religion, but also a nationality, hence the Jews from the Arab countries are Jews, belonging to the Jewish Nation and not Arabs, although born in an Arab country and practising some rituals.traditions. The rituials/traditions practised by these Semites are all Jewish in nature, but with a "local" twist. eg. Ashkenazi versus Sephardi wedding ceremonies etc.

The State of Israel is the Jewish Nation and hence is not part of the Arab world, history, as well as current affairs testify to this rather strongly.

Hoepoe

[NousDefionsDoc]

Welcome Hoepoe. Good to see you again.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp.../ts_nm/iraq_dc

Originally posted by hoepoe
Good day all

First of, i think the site's great!

Greenhat, you raise an interesting point of view, it is true, many Israelis are indeed Semites, originating from countries such as Iraq, Iran, Morroco, Egypt, Syria and so on and so forth.

However, being a Jew is not only a religion, but also a nationality, hence the Jews from the Arab countries are Jews, belonging to the Jewish Nation and not Arabs, although born in an Arab country and practising some rituals.traditions. The rituials/traditions practised by these Semites are all Jewish in nature, but with a "local" twist. eg. Ashkenazi versus Sephardi wedding ceremonies etc.

The State of Israel is the Jewish Nation and hence is not part of the Arab world, history, as well as current affairs testify to this rather strongly.

Hoepoe

Jews are just one of the tribal groups of the Arab world. I disagree that Israel is not part of the Arab world, they are a very obvious part of it, central to its focus in many ways. They are the part of the Arab world that has become most successful at warfare and at adopting democracy, and because of the hostility of the rest of the Arab world, as well as their own religious identity, they prefer to be identified seperately. Nevertheless, they are Semites both linguistically and culturally, and many are Semites ethnically.

[hoepoe]

Greenhat, Sir

I beg to differ. It is crrect that meny Jews are Semitic in origin, but you need to understand that there are 12 tribes of Jews, and that these tribes are the Tribes of Israel, not Arab tribes.

Israel is definately not part of the Arab worl, sure, Israel has an great bearing on the Arab world and visa-versa, but definately not part of the Arab world per se.

Perhaps if we were, they wouldn't want to "push us into the sea"? food for though eh?

Hoepoe

I'd say that the reason they want to push you into the sea has more to do with your similarities than differences. After all, they were never as rabid against the British.

[hoepoe]

Greenhat, let's not go down that road today....

Hoepoe

[Solid]

I'd say that the reason they want to push you into the sea has more to do with your similarities than differences.

Greenhat, I'm not attacking this argument because I think I agree, but I'm wondering for my own sake how you would go about substantiating this point?

Thank you,

Solid

A few bits are obvious.

Language and culture are intertwined. Similer languages have their roots in similar cultures. Arabic and Hebrew are very similer languages (Semite is actually a technical term for a language group that encompasses both Arabic and Hebrew among others).

They share similer judicial historical systems: "an eye for an eye".

Until 60 years ago, they spent far more time fighting among themselves than with anyone else. As horrible as the Holocaust was, an argument can be made that it (along with the Warsaw uprising and some other events) united the Jewish people and led to the foundation of Israel. The foundation of Israel united the non-Jewish Arabs (mostly) with a single cause (tossing the Jews into the Sea).

Now, when it comes to the fundamentalist terrorists that are most commonly found in the Middle East, there are two major issues that must be looked at. One is their culture, Arab, a version of the Arab culture that has not undergone the forge, the suffering and the evolution that Jewish Arab culture has undergone. Two is their religion, Islam, a religion that is relatively new on Earth and one that, in that part of the world, suffers from the culture that supports its lack of exposure to other religions and not having to cope/adapt to other religions (as Islam has had to do in SE Asia for example). This has created a crucible that is perfect for power-hungry individuals to manipulate both the culture and the religion to create fanatics who will commit suicide to be martyrs.

And the last sentence shows another similarity between Jews and Arabs. Mossada. The Uprising. Jews have also made conscious decisions to become martyrs.

By the way, I am a strong supporter of Israel. I just happen to think that Israel proves that Arabs can live in a democracy, they can evolve to something more than a tribal system/culture.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Greenhat
A few bits are obvious.

Language and culture are intertwined. Similer languages have their roots in similar cultures. Arabic and Hebrew are very similer languages (Semite is actually a technical term for a language group that encompasses both Arabic and Hebrew among others).

They share similer judicial historical systems: "an eye for an eye".

Until 60 years ago, they spent far more time fighting among themselves than with anyone else. As horrible as the Holocaust was, an argument can be made that it (along with the Warsaw uprising and some other events) united the Jewish people and led to the foundation of Israel. The foundation of Israel united the non-Jewish Arabs (mostly) with a single cause (tossing the Jews into the Sea).

Now, when it comes to the fundamentalist terrorists that are most commonly found in the Middle East, there are two major issues that must be looked at. One is their culture, Arab, a version of the Arab culture that has not undergone the forge, the suffering and the evolution that Jewish Arab culture has undergone. Two is their religion, Islam, a religion that is relatively new on Earth and one that, in that part of the world, suffers from the culture that supports its lack of exposure to other religions and not having to cope/adapt to other religions (as Islam has had to do in SE Asia for example). This has created a crucible that is perfect for power-hungry individuals to manipulate both the culture and the religion to create fanatics who will commit suicide to be martyrs.

And the last sentence shows another similarity between Jews and Arabs. Mossada. The Uprising. Jews have also made conscious decisions to become martyrs.

By the way, I am a strong supporter of Israel. I just happen to think that Israel proves that Arabs can live in a democracy, they can evolve to something more than a tribal system/culture.

GH,
I don’t think any religion that started 620 CE could be considered a “new� religion.
Mormon, now that is a “new� religion.

BTW, most so called Christians also shared “similer judicial historical systems: "an eye for an eye".�

I agree with Hoepoe, just because the Jews live surrounded by arabs I would not lump them in the same class as arabs. That’s as bad as calling me a democrat just because I live in a country filled with them.

TS

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
GH,
I don’t think any religion that started 620 CE could be considered a “new� religion.
Mormon, now that is a “new� religion.

BTW, most so called Christians also shared “similer judicial historical systems: "an eye for an eye".�

I agree with Hoepoe, just because the Jews live surrounded by arabs I would not lump them in the same class as arabs. That’s as bad as calling me a democrat just because I live in a country filled with them.

TS

I think you are missing my point. I am not lumping them together because of where they live. I am grouping them together because they share common cultural roots, linguistic roots and judicial system roots. Most Christians may share similer historic judicial systems, but not the other points. As a matter of fact, "Christian" does not apply to any specific cultural group, or linguistic group (although some of each may have a stronger representation). Nor does Islam (and a religion that is less than 2000 years old is a relatively new religion comparitively).

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Greenhat
I think you are missing my point. I am not lumping them together because of where they live. I am grouping them together because they share common cultural roots, linguistic roots and judicial system roots. Most Christians may share similer historic judicial systems, but not the other points. As a matter of fact, "Christian" does not apply to any specific cultural group, or linguistic group (although some of each may have a stronger representation). Nor does Islam (and a religion that is less than 2000 years old is a relatively new religion comparitively).

I understood your point completely hence the democrat remark. I share the same “common cultural roots, linguistic roots and judicial system roots� as many democrats but I’d turn into an enraged bull if someone we’re to place me in the same category as ted kennedy, bill clinton, and jesse jackson. Counter point, your turn.

TS