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Old 09-26-2009, 16:13   #46
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Testimony Before the House Armed Services Committee, Between Terrorism and Religious Extremism
Shilbey Telhami, 3 Nov 2005

Shibley Telhami, a nonresident senior fellow in the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, is the Anwar Sadat Professor for Peace and Development at the University of Maryland. He is a noted expert on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, and a former advisor to the U.S. Mission to the United Nations and the Iraq Study Group, an independent organization that assessed U.S. policy in Iraq.

Let me say at the outset that the gravest threat to the United States today is neither Islamic groups nor Islamic fundamentalism as such.
Lost me right there and I'm throwing the bullshit flag. The idea of demoting islam's religion status, IMO is a great idea and should be called what it really is, fascism.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>


Then again The United States attempted to sit out WWII thinking Nazi aggression was being over blown.

Sir Winston Churchill has already spoken on islam, funny how he and "I" now think alike.

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Old 09-26-2009, 16:28   #47
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Lost me right there...
Perhaps it would be better to start at the conclusion - I have generally found it helps me get a better grip on a thesis when I read the intro and concluding arguments, and then read through the body to see how and whether or not it logically supported them.

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In the end, we must define the central enemy correctly. It is primarily al-Qaeda and its allies as organizations that must be defeated. It is not terrorism broadly and it is not Islamism broadly. Terrorism is not an ideology, and al-Qaeda’s ideology of seeking a Taliban-like world order is its source of weakness in the Muslim world, not its source of strength. Our strategy must isolate it by addressing the issues that most Muslims care about—not blur the distinction between the vast majorities with whom we have no principled quarrel and those few whose aims can never be reconciled with America’s.

Allow me to end on a cautionary note. In broadly defining the threat as “Islamic extremism” without specifying what we mean exactly, we risk much. In fighting serious threats like that posed by al-Qaeda there is certainly a need to rely in part on significant covert operations as well as overt ones. But, there have recently been reports of the possible broadening of such operations to include extremist groups, leaders, and clergy. My worry is that we do not have, and probably never will, the kind of expertise that allows us to determine who’s a friend and who’s an enemy simply on the basis of utterances. One could end up targeting as suspects millions of people in a world of 1.2 billion Muslims. Given the deficient expertise in our bureaucracies in the languages, religions, and cultures of the Muslim world, we risk the chance of mistakes that could backfire, relying on locals who have their own agendas, and wasting precious resources. The strategy in the first place must remain focused on the operational and the logistical, not on what people say.

Richard's $.02
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Old 09-26-2009, 17:54   #48
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Richard,

Why do you insist on posting the comments of deceptive dopplegangers as if they were legitimate? At best, this one’s an over-the-top apologist for islam.

It smells more like takiyya (b.s.) to me.

Let's start by exposing his 3 main arguments:

1. He promulgates the MYTH that poverty is the root cause of terrorism. It's not. Common sense tells a non-academic so. Just this week: Attacks planned for NYC from Denver, attacks planned for Houston and Springfield, IL...ALL of them worshipers of allah. Why don't we see more terrorism in India and other non-muslim, poor countries? Oh, wait, there's terrorism in India...but not by the Hindus - who are under the EXACT same economic conditions as the worshipers of allah. You do the math.

2. Palestine and Israel isn't about Palestine. For the Islamic world, American Diplomacy is only about pressure on Israel. As a frame of reference, you should also read what Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic LAW) says about truces.

But first, a quick refresher on the history of the Six-Day War of 1967:

“Launched by the Egyptians to WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP and push Jewish inhabitants into the sea, it ended instead with Israel in control of the West Bank (formerly occupied by Jordan) and Gaza (which had been controlled by Egypt). This humiliating defeat, however, was eventually turned into a great victory by Islamic propagandists who redefined the ongoing war of the whole Islamic world against the Jewish state as, instead, a struggle merely between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Thus Israel was transformed from David into Goliath! This alienated much of the old sympathy for Israel – especially on the Left – that had previously been enjoyed by the outnumbered and besieged Jewish state.” (See WW IV by Norman Podhoretz, page 66)

* A good point of reference: In al qaeda training camps, recruits in an ideology class were given a list of the main enemies of islam:
- #1 Heretics (the Mubaraks of the world)
- #2 Shiites
- #3 America (the Great Satan)
- #4 Israel (Little Satan)

So wait, the islamic world expects the Great Satan to cure their problem with Little Satan?

Hmmm.

Little cognitive dissonance anyone?

3. His encouragement for "major public diplomacy" is simply a call for us to give more money and concessions to encourage (read APPEASE) the alligator in the hopes it will eat us last.

On one point, I agree. We must define the enemy correctly.

In WWII, the enemy wasn't blitzkreig (a tactic).

It was nazism (an evil, supremicist, racist, totalitarian ideology)

Our enemy now isn't terrorism (a tactic).

It is islamism (an evil, supremicist, racist, totalitarian ideology).

HAT TIP to T.S. - the only clarification or update to the definition of fascism I would make is to footnote that "nation" refers to the ummah in this case (the islamic "nation")
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Old 09-26-2009, 18:13   #49
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Thank you Richard for your post showing the other side of the 'Islam' argument.

It definitely something I'm new to but I do think it’s important for one to sort this out in ones own head prior to any deployments or what have you.

Where as I still am concerned that fundamentally Islam may be an enemy to our way of life, and with my limited understanding can’t see that fundamentalism being significantly ‘dis-powerd’ any time quickly, the article you posted is wise in its suggestion that we need to pick our battles.

Just like we do not legislate what people think in this country (with good reason), we too should not 'persecute' what those outside the US think of us.

I see from your article how important it is to draw the line between a combatant and a radical. Fight the former, win over the later?

Perhaps this is the idea behind "Moderate Taliban"...My father taught me never to corner anyone, in a fight or in business. A man with room to move is less likely to take desperate action. By continuing to treat even 'relative' moderates as our enemies do we corner then and cause them to side with our true enemies more?

Thanks for letting me learn.


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The only reference I can find in the sacred text that our way of life is primairly based on is Matthew 10:16 "“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

Is this perhaps a basis for our own Hud'na?
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Last edited by Scimitar; 09-26-2009 at 18:26.
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Old 09-26-2009, 23:32   #50
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It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.

- MK Ghandi
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 09-27-2009, 06:13   #51
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"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

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Old 09-27-2009, 07:09   #52
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I have no tolerance for evil whatever its guise.

Every major horror of history was committed in the name of an altruistic motive.

- Ayn Rand

Quote:
Let's start by exposing his 3 main arguments:
Those points are not his arguments - they are but an arrant misreading of the speaker's theses.

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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 09-27-2009, 14:38   #53
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I don't think our battle is with Muslims I think it is with Islam, surely not every Mulsim out there has it in for me and I do think the author takes it too far.

But at the end of the day if a moderate Muslim even a lapsed Muslim was told cross over to us and live or stay with them and die...

I predict we possibly may see a schisim in the US Mulsim population due to the protection afforded them but we ain't gonna see it in the ME of Nth Aftrica or the coming European Islamic Republic.

The hardliners will rule the politics becuase this is how Islam works, it ain't gonna change quick enough and these hardliners have the backing of their cultural authority - the Koran.

AFchic,

I think your point is right though re: picking and choosing scripture, but your example is way off.

Now I don't see the point in getting into religious debate as this thread is about how we should see and interact with Islam but...

A) 1 Tim 1:9-10 = Homosexuality = sin
B) 1 Tim 2:9-10 = Woman should focus on building their character not how sexually desirably they are.

1) 'A & B' are not the same verse or even paragraph
2) 'B' encourages a woman to focus on building character not on building how sexually desirable she is and discusses how that principle is to be outworked in Timothy’s culture and time.

Today it would be different rules but the same principle. Most parents honestly wouldn't want to see their 16 year old daughter wearing her low riders with her G-string showing just below her lower back tattoo while wearing a crop top and a tongue ring. You get my point? "Multi layer mixed clothing with braided hair was the same as this in that culture."

Scimitar
Scimitar, that's a spot on analysis. You've been writing real well in this great thread. Just like in real estate, it's location, location, location, in reading and interpretation of the Book, it's context, context, context. Time frame and cultural references come to mind. For example, the use of the word "pig" can refer to police officers now in the America/the West. However, to apply the same usage to the word "pig" found in centuries old text is clearly a misinterpretation.

Now, is it possible/probable to apply the same reasoning when it comes to context to Islam? Could some clerics out there argue that writings done during the prophet's time cannot literary apply word for word today?

I grew up among muslims, interacted with them on a daily basis, and shared their feast during Islam holidays. I must say they did not treat me as dhimmi...or maybe I was too young and naive. Still, I wonder how Greg Mortenson, a saint (in my book) and an American infidel who builds schools for girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan approach this issue. How about Faisal Baig, his bodyguard, a muslim who protected him all the way and would readily spit on Osama Bin Laden's picture. How about Syed Abbas, a shi'ah religious leader who labored to cancel the fatwa issued to Greg Mortenson so that he could continue building schools. I seriously doubt the cleric's efforts were taqqiya and/or hud'na. The cleric implored Americans to “look into our hearts and see that the great majority of us are not terrorists, but good and simple people.” I'm afraid that attack and hostility against Islam will alienate these good people.

Can hearts and minds approach still win the (long) war in the end? Complex issue, indeed. I do believe that at some point in the future, one truly have to choose sides, and that decision will have to be made in advance.
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Old 09-28-2009, 00:47   #54
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Thanks for that first hand point of view Frostfire; food for thought.

Human nature likes to generalize..."All Muslims are bad"...it makes life simpler doesn't it.

I was talking to my father about this and he brought up his time in VN.
"Just cos someone was Asian looking didn't mean the guy wanted to kill me or had even thought about killing me"...
"problem with this though is it made life pretty complicated...who's the enemy"...

The guys with grey uniforms are the bad guys and the guys in green are the good guys....right....note to self only shot at the guys in grey...

However I still tend towards the school of thought that Islam's centre of gravity (Koran) tends towards anti-pluralism and it's a very long road till that gravitational pull significantly diminished. But I definitely need to do more reading before I close on that position...

Great thread.


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-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
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"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
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"Malo mori quam foedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
"Be strong! Drive-on!"
-- Māori saying

Last edited by Scimitar; 09-28-2009 at 00:51.
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