Are we at war with Islam?

[NousDefionsDoc]

GH,
I have to disagree. Your point would be valid if the people living in Israel were all natives of the region. Your theory discounts the thousands that came from Europe over the years and the change that has made in the Jewish people. They only share the common culture/language if they are from there. What you're saying is akin to claiming that Americans are British because some of us have pale skin and we speak English.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Your point would be valid if the people living in Israel were all natives of the region.

To expound upon what NDD stated, Jews living in the United States equal the number of Jews currently living in Israel. (give or take a couple hundred thousand) I read some where that the Jews living in Israel only comprise 37% of all Jews worldwide.

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I understood your point completely hence the democrat remark. I share the same “common cultural roots, linguistic roots and judicial system roots� as many democrats but I’d turn into an enraged bull if someone we’re to place me in the same category as ted kennedy, bill clinton, and jesse jackson. Counter point, your turn.

TS

Would you object to be called an American?

Democrat is a political label, not a cultural one.

On the other hand, Arab (or Semite) is a cultural/linguistic label.

[rudyzbt]

Jewish Population

United States 5,800,000
Israel 4,847,000
followed by France, Russia, Ukraine, Canada, UK, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, and Australia and many more places with smaller populations.

I have known many Jews who could claim a variety of different ethnicities. At one time there were large numbers of Chinese Jews, mostly killed around 1648 in a rebellion led an old general named Old One Eye. I have known Indian Jews, who were definitely Indian. Ethopian Jews, Falasha, look Ethopian and are so Ethnically.

Israel is I would say is a state in the middle east and therefore is extremely interconnected with everything in the region. As to being Semetic and sharing that heritage with their Arab neighbors, there are plenty of similarities, but plenty of difference. As to similar language backgrounds. The semetic language groups share similar features and theoretically may have developed from the same common root. They share similar roots of words sometimes and some similarity in grammer. But much of the grammer and word morphology is completely different. But, German and Farsi are both Indo-European languages and they share many similar words, daughter is the same in both languages and many more. But how close is their common heritage there? Is there one? Spain is probably the closest country that is ethnically and historically linked by history to the middle east and the Arabs. But despite the common background, we can't group them that way. I would say the same is true of Israel and Jews.

I am not sure I understood what you meant by the following, Sir.

"And the last sentence shows another similarity between Jews and Arabs. Mossada. The Uprising. Jews have also made conscious decisions to become martyrs." GH

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
GH,
I have to disagree. Your point would be valid if the people living in Israel were all natives of the region. Your theory discounts the thousands that came from Europe over the years and the change that has made in the Jewish people. They only share the common culture/language if they are from there. What you're saying is akin to claiming that Americans are British because some of us have pale skin and we speak English.

OK, some Israelis (possibly even a large %) may not share a Semite "racial" background (although coming from Europe does not disprove that, a large number of the Jews killed in WWII were Semites). However, they do share the cultural background (it is an integral part of Jewish life, whether from New York or wherever) and if Hebrew speakers (the official language of Israel), language.

Skin color or eye color or racial background is not the key here. Culture is. And what I am saying is not any different than saying that Thai and Lao people are both "Tai" (neither likes hearing it, it doesn't make it false).

Israeli culture is significantly evolved compared to the other Arab nations (I have opinions about the reasons why), but that evolution does not mean it is not an Semite culture (heck, "anti-semite" usually means someone who is prejudiced against Jews).

Regarding calling Americans "British"? No, more akin to calling Americans "Westerners", because we share common cultural roots, concepts, etc. It doesn't make us the same.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Greenhat
Democrat is a political label, not a cultural one...

I dont know that I can agree with that Sir.

While the label is political in nature it could be argued there are cultural differences between the two as well.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Do you consider the Asian Americans in the US Westerners?

For example - the large Korean population in the US, oh, let's say the Evangelical Christians who speak Korean in the home?

I have no doubt that historically speaking you are correct. But, IMO, the Jewish people are no more Arab than I am English.

Hell, culturally, I am more Latin than anything else. I'm just prettier than Ricky Martin and don't have the Momma's Boy attitude a lot of the males have. I share language, religion (what there is of it in me), diet, geographic location, etc. But my family is Scottish. I have more in common with my next door neighbor than with my brother.

Can't classify people like rocks, people change. What they were 2,000 years ago is not what they are today - except for the Islamic nation states that want to freeze or even go backwards in time.

[rudyzbt]

Having spent a lot of time in Israel, I would say that it is defined by its cultural diversity. Look at how many different political parties exist in the state, as they often divide along "ethinic" lines. Semetic is just a term, any word can be taken and used in anyway as the meaning attached to it changes with the usage. Jews are Semites. Arabs are Semites. Basically because they share a language in a similar family group. But culturally a falasha Jew and an Ashkanazi Jew are very different. For that matter an Israeli Jew is very different from an American Jew even if they both share a recent historical place of origin. There is a huge divide between the Arab and the European Jew culturally. They are extremely different people. Hebrew and Arabic are the closest conection, but for the majority of people in Israel, Hebrew is a new language, constructed almost 100 years ago from classical Hebrew and a small part of Arabic to be used as the modern language of the future Israel. Each immigrant that moved to Israel took with him or her a piece of the culture from their original home. If anything, Israel is more Mediterean European in its nature today, than anything else. Ahh though, Israeli women in uniform, if she doesn't kill for looking at her the wrong way first, they make for an interesting cultural experience Now, I know that the Israel women I have met would have tried to chop my balls off and feed them to me if I tried to put her in a group with the Arabs of the Middle East.

[NousDefionsDoc]

The other thing is "American" is a geographic label, not a cultural label. You don't consider the people of Central and South America "Americans"? What about Canadians?

Jewish is a religious label - Israeli is comparable to "American", not Jew.

There are probably one or two Christian Israelis living over there somewhere.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Each immigrant that moved to Israel took with him or her a piece of the culture from their original home.

That's what I'm saying. They are now Israelis, that is their culture. Its new, 55 years old or so, just like the US culture is only 200 years old. But it is a culture to be reckoned with none the less.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The other thing is "American" is a geographic label, not a cultural label. You don't consider the people of Central and South America "Americans"? What about Canadians?

Jewish is a religious label - Israeli is comparable to "American", not Jew.

There are probably one or two Christian Israelis living over there somewhere.

Spot on NDD.

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Jewish is a religious label - Israeli is comparable to "American", not Jew.

There are probably one or two Christian Israelis living over there somewhere.

Judaism is a religion, but Jewish is both a religious and ethnic label. If you are an atheist, you don't stop being a Jew, and if you or your wife is an atheist Jewish woman, your children are still Jews.

I suupose there are some Jews for Jesus in Israel, but most Christians in Israel (about 2% of the population) are Arabs (plus the small number of Greeks and others at various holy sites). Almost one-fifth (around 1.1 million) of Israel's population are Israeli Arabs. There are more democratically elected Arab leaders in Israel than there are in the entire Arab League, and Israeli Arabs, while having various grievances against their government, are not prime recruiting sources for Palestinian terrorists. In 2003, according to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 3,838 terrorist attacks were perpetrated against Israeli targets (down from 5,301 in 2002). Four of these implicated Israeli Arabs, but these were among the bloodiest - 45 of the 213 Israelis killed in 2003 were in these 4 attacks. Israeli forces uncovered 43 Israeli Arabs in 26 terror cells in 2003, compared to 78 Israeli Arabs in 35 terror cells in 2002.

Jews and Arabs don't have that much in common. Their languages may both be Semitic, but they are as different as English and Spanish, both Indo-European cousins. A fair number of Israeli Sephardic Jews came from Arab countries (or are their children) and have more culturally in common with Arabs than other Jews, but they represent a minority. Of Israel's 5 million Jews, about 475,000 speak Arabic dialects (mostly Moroccan, Iraqi, Tunisian, Yemeni and Libyan Jews who emigrated or were expelled from those countries) and that number shrinks daily as they die or assimilate. Judeo-Arabic speakers are no more Arabs than Ladino speakers are Spaniards.

Modern Jewish culture, even among many Sephardim, is much more of a Western culture. Although Judaism and Islam are both "law-based" religion (in contrast to Christianity, a "faith-based" religion), many of their teachings and attitudes toward who can make law are very different. Also, Islam was heavily influenced by certain Christian sects of Arabia.

GH, regarding martyrdom, Islam's approach to martyrdom has little in common with Judaism's approach, or Christianity's for that matter. Martyrdom in Judaism is a last ditch resort, and goes against all religious teaching (pikuach nefesh - saving or preservation of life - is probably the highest Jewish value). Christianity was born in an act of martyrdom and martyrdom figures heavily throughout church history - St. Polycarp, St. Agnes, Perpetua, St. Edmund, Thomas a Becket, the recently canonized Orthodox saint Yevgenii Rodionov, etc. - but most Christian martyrdoms, following Christ's example, were acts of self-sacrifice in the name of one's faith, rather than killing others. That is quite different from Islam's approach.

Still, I would point out that this holy war-style martyrdom was a factor in the Crusades and does have scriptural support (see, e.g., Hebrews 11:32-34: "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of ... the prophets who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.").

The approaches to martyrdom in various religions is a complex topic and I feel I am giving it short shrift. Suffice to say, it is difficult to compare today's suicide bombers to traditional Islamic views on martyrdom (closer to the Crusader or "Onward Christian Soldiers" mentality). It is far more difficult, and a little insulting, to compare them to Jewish or Christian martyrs.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Judaism is a religion, but Jewish is both a religious and ethnic label. If you are an atheist, you don't stop being a Jew, and if you or your wife is an atheist Jewish woman, your children are still Jews.

I don't think I agree with this, but don't know enough about Jews to be sure.

[Solid]

As a non-jewish jew, I'd say that that's pretty accurate. I don't practice at all, among other things, and I'm still considered a jew because of my 'blood'.

Solid

[NousDefionsDoc]

Do you practice any other religion?