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Old 07-23-2016, 09:01   #46
Old Dog New Trick
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eine_frau,

What you do is the best thing possible to survive. That may be different for different folks and the totality of the immediate situation.

In your case and with your son you put distance between you and the problem. It's very hard to hit a laterally moving target. If unseen, remain unseen.

Glad to hear you are okay.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:06   #47
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eine_frau,

What you do is the best thing possible to survive. That may be different for different folks and the totality of the immediate situation.

In your case and with your son you put distance between you and the problem. It's very hard to hit a laterally moving target. If unseen, remain unseen.

Glad to hear you are okay.

Thank you ODNT, I hope I never have to remember your words.
Run and stay out of sight would be instinctive, I hope.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:42   #48
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Eine_Frau,

I, for one, value your contributions to this board. Your post earlier today was particularly poignant as it came from the heart. It is not easy to watch violence come to an otherwise peaceful and beautiful city, and it is natural to wonder what you would do when confronted by the wolf. More on why I say “wolf” shortly.

We are all very relieved that you were not there, and isn’t it ironic that something as simple as a puppy might have made the difference? What would you have done if you were there? You would have done everything in your power to protect your son. In this type of situation that might amount little more than seeing yourselves through the nearest exit. Fortunately, it did not come to that. Nor did you need to discover the lengths a cornered mother will go to protect her child. This is where the average person learns they, too, have a bit of the sheepdog in them.

You referenced “sheeple” in your post. If you’ve read enough here on PS.com you probably realized many of us here subscribe to the analogy that there are three types of people: sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. I won’t go into great detail describing each since the original source did it better than I ever could: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

In a nutshell, sheep are the average citizens, sheepdogs are the protectors—military, police, first responders, and wolves are the bad guys from petty criminals to terrorists. The Munich police, the Bundespolizei, GSG-9, and paramedics are all sheepdogs and behaved as such. The shooter was obviously the wolf. Everyone else simply going about their business when the shooting started were the sheep.

If you read LTC Grossman’s article, you’ll see there is nothing wrong with being a sheep. Where we on this board, sheepdogs, take issue is when the sheep, vastly outnumbering the lone wolf, meekly await their turn to be slaughtered. We’ve seen it here in our own country. A killer comes into a college classroom (Oregon, 02 OCT 2015) and those inside curl up on the floor and wait to die. To us, this is madness. Even the sheep must find the sheepdog inside at a moment like this and overwhelm the wolf.

You will see the QPs on this site talk about things like Situational Awareness and being “switched on”. These are concepts we live by and we want more people to do so as well. This is a necessary first step in becoming less sheep-like.

We understand that evil exists and bad things happen to good people. When the wolf comes, I just think more good people should take an active role in deciding the outcome.
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Old 07-23-2016, 13:39   #49
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Thank you Divemaster for taking the time to write the above post.

I have met my inner "momma bear". I am glad you wrote that.

I was introduced to the concept of "situational awareness" years ago on this forum
-somewhere around the time I moved from a teeny, tiny farm village to Munich. I realized then, how careless I went about my days. I am glad I read about it, because nobody here in Germany seems to advise anybody to be "switched on".

I know I changed, the way I look at people changed. But I miss the naïve careless old me, sometimes. Things are heading in a bad direction.

Unfortunately it seems that yesterday's victims were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

And you can do everything right and still end up dead.
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Old 07-23-2016, 13:51   #50
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if that momma bear encounters the wolf, take that knife out and slice his throat.

In a pinch remember GET.
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Old 07-23-2016, 14:25   #51
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I rarely have something relevant to contribute to this board, but last night was very close and personal to me.

I have read countless referrals to people being sheeple on this board. Always gritting my teath a bit because I was afraid I fall into that category. Now I KNOW I do.
I can't see myself doing anything other than run and try to protect my son. What is the right thing to do? Run? Hide? Play dead?
Eine frau,

Just wanted to say welcome to PS.com, and glad you are safe! What a horrible tragedy, and thoughts and prayers out to all those affected.

For me personally, I have read countless, and I do mean countless posts and threads from QP's about what to do in life threatening situations, and it has changed my life and way of thinking. That is really the only way I can put it...thank God for these Men, and their willingness to share this information to us.

My little tiny advice is keep reading as much as you can, and the search button helps tremendously! :-)


Be safe, and take care!

Holly

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Old 07-23-2016, 16:14   #52
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I have a bit more time now...

Here's what not to do-

-Don't lay down and wait to be killed (that also means playing dead) when you had an opportunity to use your feet to escape.

-Don't run yourself into a corner or hide in a place with no exit. (Public bathrooms come to mind)

-Don't ever let your mind be overwhelmed by the event. Remember how you arrived, where you are in relation to exits and cover (something solid enough to protect you.) Always observe "EXIT" signs when in a public space whether familiar to you or a strange new place. Always develop a new plan once the old plan becomes invalid. (This is a constantly evolving process it never ends until you are safely away from there and back home.)

-Don't assume anything! (Unless you are at a party with balloons or the Fourth of July, Bastille Day, Tag der Deutschen Einheit (Reunification Day) or a Chinese New Year...those pop pop popping sounds most likely are not fireworks.

-Don't neglect to listen to your gut instincts. Fight or Flight will be the first two after a brief moment of stun. Cower in place, fall to the fetal position, hide under a desk with four metal legs or behind a potted plant are all conscious decisions. Avoid making them. You either get to flee the immediate area or fight the attacker!

I could probably go on and on but if remember this much you are unlikely to be a victim of random violence.

One last only because it's relevant- if someone is trying to run you down with a speeding car or truck- Don't run down the road in front of them. Face the threat, perhaps even running at the threat and watch the vehicles motion and likely path then move left or right of the path it physically can't be. You are faster on your feet than moving the mass of a vehicle off its line. Then it's past you!

This is a mindset. "I will not surrender my mind to fear. I will survive. I will win!"
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Old 07-23-2016, 16:26   #53
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Fight or Flight will be the first two after a brief moment of stun...all conscious decisions. Avoid making them. You either get to flee the immediate area or fight the attacker!

This is a mindset. "I will not surrender my mind to fear. I will survive. I will win!"
All of your post was great information. But, these two are the main ones I use when asked about active shooter scenarios.

Practice, practice, practice. I tell them that even though they may not have the physical locations to routinely use for training...they can come up with enough mental scenarios to train their minds and get them use to options for those types of situations.

Unfortunately, "flight" is the option that generally pops up first for most people in the work-a-day-world. They have to get their mind past the panic mode and go into survival mode.
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Old 07-23-2016, 16:47   #54
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Yep, we don't get to flee. Our first instinct is to take the fight to the threat and develop our plan heading towards the danger.

What kind of person knowingly charges into a death battle whether equipped with all the latest weapons, protection, and communications or none of that but his (or her) desire to win the fight even at the risk of losing his/her life in the process?

What do you call that person?







Hero!

Salute to all those in a uniform or no uniform at all who do that, have done that, or someday will do that. For love of humanity; complete strangers and all!

RIP to the victims of senseless violence.
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Old 07-23-2016, 17:02   #55
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Your post truly resonated with quite a few people Eine Frau. I always believed that every person had the potential to be a sheep dog when it was the Momma or Papa bear involved and truly there is not a thing wrong with keeping your SA up and when things go sideways, making like a hockey player and getting the puck out when you are protecting your kids. It is just what we do as parents as a good Momma and Papa know when to fight and when to run with kids in tow.

It truly sucks that we as a people have lost our innocence due to those who have an agenda of evil that they force upon those that have never harmed them. When you said that you were proud of your city it made me smile as I was proud of it and it's people for in the dark moments that this person forced upon you guys, you all showed what makes Munich so magnificent. It's citizens. I will be eternally grateful for those I met there last month and look forward to meeting more of them when we go back in 2 years.

For the record my wife thought me a bit crazy for always wearing my riggers belt, carrying my IFAK and tourniquet through Europe and don't get me started about the nature of the pocket knife I carried as I am not sure that the statute of limitations will expire by the time we return. Needless to say this is exactly why I did carry them every where we went because you never know what evil lurks around the corner.

The only thing that I can add about active shooters is to always listen before running. Particularly wait for a lull in the gun shots as no matter what type of gun is used, they all need to be reloaded and that lull can be what makes the difference in your escape.

Take care and know that you and the people of your city are in our thoughts and prayers as you come to terms with the aftermath of this cowards acts.
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Old 07-23-2016, 18:18   #56
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those pop pop popping sounds most likely are not fireworks.
And they are not "backfire". I've not heard a car backfire in over 30 years. I hear that over and over on news reports.

I'd add, if you are in a restaurant when something goes down, grab knives, forks, even stemware to take with you as weapons (if you are not already carrying - hell, even if you are, you may get hungry later ).

Pat
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Old 07-23-2016, 21:56   #57
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Pro Tip:

"Allahu' Akbar" roughly translates to "Gentlemen, Watch your lanes".
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Old 07-23-2016, 23:48   #58
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I went to the OEZ last night to check up on friends who live on top of the mall. Some people there insist they saw another shooter. So we spent most of the night discussing how witness reports differ, how crowds react. (FWIW I think the official narrative is quite plausible.)
It was weird to be there. And all described being on an emotional roller coaster.

The "what would I have done" question was asked a lot. That makes me feel grateful that people here are taking the time to share their wisdom.Thank you to all of you.
I will have to come back to this thread regularly and reread. And teach my son.

Holly,
thank you for your kind words, I was trying before to say that reading the QP's posts on these things has changed me and the way I go about my days, I just couldn't say it so eloquently. I have been here for a while, but mostly I have more to gain than to give so I stay quiet.

Bleed Green
I am happy you enjoyed Munich. It is an awesome city.
It won't be changed by this.
Thank you for your encouragement.

My thoughts are with the victims and my heart breaks with every new bit of information on those who were impacted.

And I am so grateful for the "sheepdogs". Even people who notoriously criticize police are acknowledging the great work everybody in uniform did that night.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:47   #59
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I went to the OEZ last night to check up on friends who live on top of the mall. Some people there insist they saw another shooter. So we spent most of the night discussing how witness reports differ, how crowds react. (FWIW I think the official narrative is quite plausible.)
It was weird to be there. And all described being on an emotional roller coaster.

The "what would I have done" question was asked a lot. That makes me feel grateful that people here are taking the time to share their wisdom.Thank you to all of you.
Let me put my Peer Support hat on for this part. It is not uncommon for people who are this close to these situations to suffer from anxiety, fear and worst case scenario PTSD. Most people that you are close to that were on site or near by just need to talk about it to get it out and help them get through the side effects. The best thing that you can do is what is called active listening. Let them talk and make sure that your body language is open to them and for the most part just listen. Open body language is sitting face to face if it is just one person or turning to face each speaker in a group, leaning towards them slightly in your chair and letting them direct where the conversation goes. You may be asked for answers, but any answers you give them will not be their answer so we generally let them find their own answer and believe me most people will find their answer and have total buy in upon its discovery. This, I found out in later life, is the reason why my mom and dad always told me God gave me two ears and one mouth so I could listen twice as much as I speak.

If they are still suffering noticeable effects weeks and months afterwards you may want to mention professional help and get a feel for how they are inclined towards that. In my experience a good clinician can be worth their weight in platinum at this point. If you notice any signs of PTSD don't be afraid of all the bad things that you have heard about it, particularly with the incidents that we have had here in Baton Rogue and Dallas. There is a therapy called Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) that has been around since the 90s. I recently attended some training where the clinician that provided the class has dedicated the majority of her practice to first responders, fire fighters, LEOs and both active duty and retired veterans. I was very impressed by the work that she has done and it has moved me to create a class for national implementation within CBP that utilizes EMDR to assist employees transition from active duty with CBP to retirement as we have a staggering amount of employees that die within the first 2 years of retirement. That says a lot about seeing the success that she has seen using this technique and in most cases it involves no more than a couple of sessions. You can Google #suckitptsd for more information on this and Tania's practice.

We will be keeping you and yours in our thoughts and prayers and if there is anything that I can do from this side of the pond never hesitate to reach out.
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Old 07-24-2016, 08:17   #60
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Let me put my Peer Support hat on for this part. It is not uncommon for people who are this close to these situations to suffer from anxiety, fear and worst case scenario PTSD. Most people that you are close to that were on site or near by just need to talk about it to get it out and help them get through the side effects. The best thing that you can do is what is called active listening. Let them talk and make sure that your body language is open to them and for the most part just listen. Open body language is sitting face to face if it is just one person or turning to face each speaker in a group, leaning towards them slightly in your chair and letting them direct where the conversation goes. You may be asked for answers, but any answers you give them will not be their answer so we generally let them find their own answer and believe me most people will find their answer and have total buy in upon its discovery. This, I found out in later life, is the reason why my mom and dad always told me God gave me two ears and one mouth so I could listen twice as much as I speak.

If they are still suffering noticeable effects weeks and months afterwards you may want to mention professional help and get a feel for how they are inclined towards that. In my experience a good clinician can be worth their weight in platinum at this point. If you notice any signs of PTSD don't be afraid of all the bad things that you have heard about it, particularly with the incidents that we have had here in Baton Rogue and Dallas. There is a therapy called Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) that has been around since the 90s. I recently attended some training where the clinician that provided the class has dedicated the majority of her practice to first responders, fire fighters, LEOs and both active duty and retired veterans. I was very impressed by the work that she has done and it has moved me to create a class for national implementation within CBP that utilizes EMDR to assist employees transition from active duty with CBP to retirement as we have a staggering amount of employees that die within the first 2 years of retirement. That says a lot about seeing the success that she has seen using this technique and in most cases it involves no more than a couple of sessions. You can Google #suckitptsd for more information on this and Tania's practice.

We will be keeping you and yours in our thoughts and prayers and if there is anything that I can do from this side of the pond never hesitate to reach out.

Great information, thank you.
I am familiar with active listening and EMDR.
EMDR I have seen used to help medical personnel with great success.

PTSD in the German civilian world does not carry all the negative connotations it may carry for you. So I think the topic is approached with much less bias here.

Fortunately Munich has a great crisis intervention team (KIT München)
They are well connected and know who to refer to whenever appropriate. Their goal is to get help to people immediately and prevent PTSD from developing. They were at the scene the whole time. EMTs and police call them routinely, also to help first responders and law enforcement cope. I know some of their instructors personally and had very helpful training by them.

I think my friends will be fine, but I will make sure they have the information to pass on to their neighbors.
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