Robed Muslim Clerics Kicked Off Flight

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Then why do we ask people to change? If Allah wills all and people have no control why do we ask people to take control of their lives?

Why are Muslim mad at the US for being in the Middle East? Allah wills it. He wants the US there.

Can people change Allah's will? Does Allah want something to happen and then a person changes it? Is there no free will in Islam?

If Allah wills it why complain?

The issue of predestination and free will is challenging in any belief system; it's not unique to Islam. I assume the same questions exist in Christian theology. If God sent Jesus to save us from the sin we are born with, why not just keep sinning once you've achieved salvation through Christ? Why for that matter did God allow Adam and Eve to be banished from Paradise at all? (The same story exists in Islam except Adam and Eve are equally guilty.) Allahu alim - God knows best.

[Pete]

Allah makes no mistakes. Allah creats the Kafir, therefore the Kafir is perfect because he was created by Allah. If the Kafir is created by Allah then the Muslim should respect what Allah was made.

Unless the Kafir was created imperfect by Allah for a reason. Did Allah create the Kafir imperfect so the Muslim would have someone to war against?

So Allah is a God of war and destruction not love and peace.

So Islam is not a religion of peace but one of war?

[T-Rock]

With all due respect, you are asking me to explain why God did something. At least that's how I understood the question.

There is no historical documentation to support the claim that Ibrihim and Ismail nor his ax built the Ka’ba in Mecca… Why would Allah confuse you???
(Surah 9:115)

The issue of predestination and free will is challenging in any belief system; it's not unique to Islam. I assume the same questions exist in Christian theology.

IMHO…, the TULIP in Calvinism is rotten to the core…

[hoot72]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

The issue of predestination and free will is challenging in any belief system; it's not unique to Islam. I assume the same questions exist in Christian theology. If God sent Jesus to save us from the sin we are born with, why not just keep sinning once you've achieved salvation through Christ? Why for that matter did God allow Adam and Eve to be banished from Paradise at all? (The same story exists in Islam except Adam and Eve are equally guilty.) Allahu alim - God knows best.

Ruth,

I have lived in and out of Muslim countries for over 20 years now and wanted to ask your opinion on the following.

The biggest problem with islam is, for the most part, islam itself. There are so many people giving so many different versions of the quran that it not only creates more problems for everyone than it really does solve issues.

On one hand, the Quran, if read word for word in certain sections goes on about the infidel or the unbeliever (i.e. non muslims) but you will always hear religious scholars talk about how islam is a religion of peace and so forth.

The problem is Islam does not have a "vatican" of sorts who decide on religious policy for ALL muslims and sets a standard, for all men and women (and children). Instead, its left to over zealous clerics who interpret the Quran depending on if they are liberal, in the middle or right wingers and this in turn also determines how conservative or ultra society in a particular country is.

Look at Malaysia, Indonesia and then compare it to Saudi and UAE. You will see a totally different interpretation of Islam amongst men, women and the religious clerics in all 4 countries...which is bizzare to say the least.

I think if Islam is going to stop situations like these (passengers being off loaded), it needs to be consistent in what it preach's to the masses (be it muslim or non muslim).

There has to be some consistency and islam as a whole MUST renounce all violence and fundamentalists like AQ and the taliban across the board.

You go to Pakistan again, it's bloody inconsistent.

Look at the way women are treated there and how people are happy to stand by and justify everything OBL has done as being "islamic" and for "jihad" despite the fact he was the man who initiated 911, the London bombings, and encouraged the bombings of the embassy's in Jakarta and the bombings in Bali. In Pakistan, you can speak to 90% of the people there and they will justify it to death with a whole lot of nonsense.

It's like talking to people who just do not understand what it means to be civilized or "normal."

I am not trying to hammer you or to "tell you off" but I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

There are a small percentage of muslims who will always try to explain that we, the non muslims have got it wrong but the problem lies in the fact the vast majority of muslims themselves don't seem to understand many issues within their own religion and are so easily mis-directed in their understanding and beliefs to the point of madness.

Don't know if that made any sense but...would appreciate your views.



1) Why do different countries have different interpretations of the Quran?

Example:

-in one country, a muslim can marry a non muslim and the non muslim does not need to convert to islam (singapore). But the same is IMPOSSIBLE in Malaysia.

-

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Ruth,

I have lived in and out of Muslim countries for over 20 years now and wanted to ask your opinion on the following.

The biggest problem with islam is, for the most part, islam itself. There are so many people giving so many different versions of the quran that it not only creates more problems for everyone than it really does solve issues.

On one hand, the Quran, if read word for word in certain sections goes on about the infidel or the unbeliever (i.e. non muslims) but you will always hear religious scholars talk about how islam is a religion of peace and so forth.

The problem is Islam does not have a "vatican" of sorts who decide on religious policy for ALL muslims and sets a standard, for all men and women (and children). Instead, its left to over zealous clerics who interpret the Quran depending on if they are liberal, in the middle or right wingers and this in turn also determines how conservative or ultra society in a particular country is.

Look at Malaysia, Indonesia and then compare it to Saudi and UAE. You will see a totally different interpretation of Islam amongst men, women and the religious clerics in all 4 countries...which is bizzare to say the least.

I think if Islam is going to stop situations like these (passengers being off loaded), it needs to be consistent in what it preach's to the masses (be it muslim or non muslim).

There has to be some consistency and islam as a whole MUST renounce all violence and fundamentalists like AQ and the taliban across the board.

You go to Pakistan again, it's bloody inconsistent.

Look at the way women are treated there and how people are happy to stand by and justify everything OBL has done as being "islamic" and for "jihad" despite the fact he was the man who initiated 911, the London bombings, and encouraged the bombings of the embassy's in Jakarta and the bombings in Bali. In Pakistan, you can speak to 90% of the people there and they will justify it to death with a whole lot of nonsense.

It's like talking to people who just do not understand what it means to be civilized or "normal."

I am not trying to hammer you or to "tell you off" but I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

There are a small percentage of muslims who will always try to explain that we, the non muslims have got it wrong but the problem lies in the fact the vast majority of muslims themselves don't seem to understand many issues within their own religion and are so easily mis-directed in their understanding and beliefs to the point of madness.

Don't know if that made any sense but...would appreciate your views.



1) Why do different countries have different interpretations of the Quran?

Example:

-in one country, a muslim can marry a non muslim and the non muslim does not need to convert to islam (singapore). But the same is IMPOSSIBLE in Malaysia.

-

Thank you for the questions, hoot72. You are totally on target regarding the variations in the practice of Islam. Some of those variations arise from differences in custom and culture and some from differences in interpretation of both the source texts and the guidance of Islamic scholars.

What makes a faith practice Islamic is belief in la ilaha il Allah, Muhammadur rasulullah. The core principle of Islam is the belief in only one God, without partners, sovereign over all that exists. That is what is monolithic in Islam. To practice Islam requires following the five "pillars." That is the same across the board; without praying five times a day there is no Islam. However, the way a woman observes hijab (for instance, face veil vs. baseball cap) does not determine whether or not she is Muslim.

I believe it is the intrinsic beauty of Islam that those fundamental beliefs and practices can adapt according to the needs and customs of different cultures. A globally authoritative board such as, using your example, the vatican, would work against that, perhaps to the peril of us all.

Regarding interpretation of the Qur'an, there are critics of Islam who don't want to allow for historical context in reading of the Qur'an, although it is crucial, and although I would imagine historical context is crucial in reading some parts of the bible as well. Another critical part of studying the Qur'an - for Muslims and non-Muslims - is to acknowledge that knowledge of the original Arabic is also critical to understanding it. I'm not saying that every bit of guidance in the Qur'an is compatible with contemporary western laws or mores, nor am I saying that I'm any kind of expert in Qur'anic interpretation. My point is that you should be fair in your approach to any holy text.

The emphasis on the English word "infidel" arises from this unfair approach to the Qur'an. Its use is meant to support the dichotomy of "Islam against the rest of the world."

As far as how Muslims interpret Qur'anic injunctions: there are things that are explicit in the book - the prohibition on eating pork, for example. Other things are not as clear, however, and are clarified in the hadith and/or scholarly jurisprudence. People talk about "sharia" as though it is set in stone. Sharia is derived from Islamic principles but differs, as you note, according to various interpretations which vary by country, region or culture. Why is interreligious marriage prohibited in Malaysia but not Singapore? Not because of some immutable Islamic principle. The law of either country could change based on religious interpretation and/or based on politics. That doesn't necessarily reflect la ilaha il Allah.

I'll stop here in case I've gone way off track.

[Dusty]

Ruth;

Why don't you guys just convert so you can quit having to constantly explain your confusing doctrine?

[PRB]

Ruth,
One simple question for you.

Was Muhammed the perfect example of manhood?

[T-Rock]

Regarding interpretation of the Qur'an, there are critics of Islam who don't want to allow for historical context in reading of the Qur'an, although it is crucial, and although I would imagine historical context is crucial in reading some parts of the bible as well.

What was the historical context of the "Treaty of Hudaibiya," (Hudna) and how does it apply today?

[echoes]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

Definitely not, Sir. In fact, I have never linked to or even pointed out to anyone my involvement on this board
because I fear not everyone would understand the nature of discussions here.

Ma'am,

Whom.are.you.afraid.of,and.what.are.you.afraid.the y.would.do???

I.know.that.you.do.not.have.to.fear.for.your.life, or.safety.here.on.PS.com.

The.Real.Men.on.this.site.free.the.oppressed.for.a .living...including.females.

Holly

Originally Posted by echoes

Ma'am,

Whom.are.you.afraid.of,and.what.are.you.afraid.the y.would.do???

I.know.that.you.do.not.have.to.fear.for.your.life, or.safety.here.on.PS.com.

The.Real.Men.on.this.site.free.the.oppressed.for.a .living...including.females.

Holly

I think you missed her point ma'am and I think most everyone understands what and who the SF are that's why we are all here.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Aloysius

There is a lot of truth in those words above. The Arabs especially are confusing, mainly because I think they're by and large a group of bullshitters and liers to appease each other............

Hey! Quit trying to hijack this thread and turn it into one about politicians.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Aloysius

TS, I grew up in the time of 80's Communism. My father instilled in me values he grew up with that were passed down from his father while escaping Il Duce in Italy. I have conservative values so ingrained in me because of these two men I have no choice but to be a Federalist, or a Republican. I have two copies of the "Federalist Papers" because my one older brother didn't want his. I am not a troll. We are Americans, and this fear of Muslim's living amongst us is real. All I have tried to say in this thread -- regardless of all the anti-Islamic rhetoric - is we should be stronger than bullying people who choose to come here. If it really is a threat to you that Muslim's live here, and I am considered a troll because I disagree, I am not sorry for taking the stance I take.

We defeated many enemies, and Communism was the last big one. I don't think kicking a couple of Muslim clerics off a plane because they're dressed like Muslim clerics is a good start to winning a war against radical Islam.

For a lot of years everyone in my house hated communists! It took Ronald Reagen to kill them, IMO. He didn't do that by kicking out every Polish, Russian, Yugo, Chinese, or Iranian national from America.

And I don't think this war is won because we demand nobody dress like a Muslim.

That's not a troll, Team Sergeant, with all do respect.

I was not aware I called you a troll.

If I thought you were you would be posting on drphil.com and not Professionalsoldiers.com.

Those 80's you speak so highly of I was in uniform, in Special Forces.

Spare me your Ronald Reagan history lesson.

TS

[PRB]

Ruth,
"You are totally on target regarding the variations in the practice of Islam. Some of those variations arise from differences in custom and culture and some from differences in interpretation of both the source texts and the guidance of Islamic scholars. "......

Many of us here have spent years in the ME, I have been going since around '84 and my most recent trip ended in '07. Our experience is not simply academic.
I went thru the normal phases when first exposed to Islam: casual observance, seeing it thru my own religious experience, and listening to ME Muslims describe it.
I began to study Islam when the Muslim explanation of the religion and the example of its actual practice appeared to be at great odds. I am not speaking solely of the individual practice of Muslims but the edicts and rulings by some of the most learned clerics at Al Azhar University.
Islam, simply put, can be about anything you want it to be....as you stated there is no central authority and Islam is as much about the life of Muhammed (as the perfect man) as it is about the Quran.
You can find a cleric to sanction anything if you can relate it to the actions of Muhammed.
I disagree with you if you say that present day Muslim clerics see Muhammed as only in his time and place. I can refer to many gold standard (supposed proven Haddith) rulings citing your prophets actions as support for thought/action/activity today in a modern setting.
Please refer to many respected clerics praising UBL on his death and his activities as a modern example of what the prophet would expect a Muslim to do.
Are there peaceful and great Muslim people...yes, many, and I've had many associations with them in the ME.
However, I also believe that they 'cherry pick' the peaceful elements of Islam from Muhammeds early days (much of which is officially abbrogated by Islamic scholars) and choose to ignore much of the written elements within the Quran and ignore the more distasteful elements of Muhammeds life and example.
I suspect you are in that catagory and enjoy praying 5 times dailey and pray for goodness etc around you.
The problem I have with Islam is that the no one in authority will say that Muhammeds actions-rape/pillage/murder of captives etc IS WRONG...ergo you can underwrite anything if you shop for the right cleric. As has happened numerous times with assuming Jihadis's.
My final question....what is the ONLY perfect guarantee of achieving Islamic heaven. Therein lies the rub.

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by Aloysius

TS,

I am not sure how I say this, but .... thank you for being the tip of the spear during communism. Thank you for being the tip of the spear after communism....Thank you for being the tip of the spear and developing this website....and thank you for producing a website where people have to work hard to learn.

A

Obsequious.

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by PRB

Ruth,
"You are totally on target regarding the variations in the practice of Islam. Some of those variations arise from differences in custom and culture and some from differences in interpretation of both the source texts and the guidance of Islamic scholars. "......

Many of us here have spent years in the ME, I have been going since around '84 and my most recent trip ended in '07. Our experience is not simply academic.
I went thru the normal phases when first exposed to Islam: casual observance, seeing it thru my own religious experience, and listening to ME Muslims describe it.
I began to study Islam when the Muslim explanation of the religion and the example of its actual practice appeared to be at great odds. I am not speaking solely of the individual practice of Muslims but the edicts and rulings by some of the most learned clerics at Al Azhar University.
Islam, simply put, can be about anything you want it to be....as you stated there is no central authority and Islam is as much about the life of Muhammed (as the perfect man) as it is about the Quran.
You can find a cleric to sanction anything if you can relate it to the actions of Muhammed.
I disagree with you if you say that present day Muslim clerics see Muhammed as only in his time and place. I can refer to many gold standard (supposed proven Haddith) rulings citing your prophets actions as support for thought/action/activity today in a modern setting.
Please refer to many respected clerics praising UBL on his death and his activities as a modern example of what the prophet would expect a Muslim to do.
Are there peaceful and great Muslim people...yes, many, and I've had many associations with them in the ME.
However, I also believe that they 'cherry pick' the peaceful elements of Islam from Muhammeds early days (much of which is officially abbrogated by Islamic scholars) and choose to ignore much of the written elements within the Quran and ignore the more distasteful elements of Muhammeds life and example.
I suspect you are in that catagory and enjoy praying 5 times dailey and pray for goodness etc around you.
The problem I have with Islam is that the no one in authority will say that Muhammeds actions-rape/pillage/murder of captives etc IS WRONG...ergo you can underwrite anything if you shop for the right cleric. As has happened numerous times with assuming Jihadis's.
My final question....what is the ONLY perfect guarantee of achieving Islamic heaven. Therein lies the rub.

Sir, it seems you acknowledge that there is no single, authoritative version of Islam, but then you decide what the truly authentic version is, and it seems to be one that is obsessed with the life of the prophet.

Please, I encourage you to read surah Al-Rad with a tafseer of the chapter. That is Islam.

In the work I do I see new converts to Islam all the time. They come to Islam because of la ilaha il Allah. That's what's happening in America. I personally don’t see the value in either alienating or attacking us. If I "pray five times daily" for "goodness," as you say, instead of burning down fast food joints and praising al Qaeda, what is wrong with that?