Shooting Drills

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

Take TS up on that offer.

went to the range today...shot well, if the civvies are to be believed, but not at a level where i thought i used to be...probably not even at the level i actuallyused to be...
i guess i need to clear my sometime on my calendar...

Originally Posted by 12B4S

I'll come along, so your misery will have company

sounds like a plan...

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

If they are shooting accurately and have a secure and balanced stance after the first week we leave their stance as it is. It is their natural stance. I always notice that instructors who can only correct stance with students after a week of Combat Marksmanship is a sign of a instructor who has little experience in teaching combat marksmanship.

KG:

Absolutely correct in both statements. Thats why I use a concept of position -- just saying what a positon is and does for the shooter. They will find their own best position. The check is performance.

It is extremely difficult for me to break in a new cadre member coming from the line for the exact reason you stated. I have to train their eyes to see 'consistency' by a shooter. Very difficult to break them from focusing on form over performance. I have techniques that work pretty well in re-focusing cadre who would rather be dogmatic than practical.

Here is one for you that you probably don't run into too much. Very few cadre I get have any idea what 'good' is, or what to reasonably expect from shooters in various conditions and with various types of resource constraints. A few days on a KD range is a pretty big eye opener.

Gene

[JimW]

NDD,
The reload drill you mentioned at the beginning is a good one. I would like to add kit selection comes into play here. Whether you carry one spare mag or twenty you should have one “emergency reload" pouch. This will preferably be an open top or kydex pouch. This is my "oh shit” reload pouch. I like to piggy back pistol pouches on top of this one rifle pouch. This will allow you to ingrain that vital muscle memory of your “go to” reload regardless of the weapon system.

When practicing the drill NDD talks about the helper should place the new mag into the same pouch. The emergency reload pouch. Through out the range training day students should focus on doing emergency reloads from this pouch and when there is a lull in the fight top it off with fresh mags. This drill applies to both pistol and rifle. If you piggy back these pouches (pistol and rifle) you will maximize your speed and proficiency at the speed reload (combat reload). Regardless of the weapon system your hand goes to the same location

Last thing: This is one of the best posts I’ve read on the internet for a firearms instructor:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Most shooters do not possess the strength to shoot for hours; this is a huge factor when training individuals, to know when they have had enough. This is also an enormous factor when they start to miss and wonder why. 99.9% of the “instructors” I've watched have NEVER told anyone "you’re tired" and that's why you are throwing shots everywhere.
(Next time you teach or watch a group of twelve or so individuals shooting watch closely for 30 minutes. At about the 30 minute mark many will start to throw rounds everywhere.
(This does not apply if the students are “barrel chested freedom fighters”, competition shooters, or some SWAT teams. These individuals usually have the requisite upper body strength required to shoot for hours without a serious degradation of marksmanship.)

When I teach one of the first things I do to "students" is ask them to shake my hand and attempt to "crush" my hand. It’s not a test of "manlihood", I use it as a "gage" to check upper body strength and grip. It also tells me how long they will be able to shoot before fatigue starts to set in.

Something else I ask students, "who here is ready to run a marathon right now?"
Normally no one answers "I can". I then ask why? The answers usually are all the same, preparing for a marathon takes months of conditioning, hours of running per day, time to strengthen the legs, lungs, harden the mind etc. Then I tell them "so does shooting a pistol straight after 20 minutes."

Most individuals arms start to "fatigue" and "fail" after 20-30 minutes and there’s no way in hell they are going to have any semblance of accuracy left after this time. This is where the instructors I've watched make their biggest mistakes, trying to "fix" an individuals problem when, at that moment, it cannot be fixed. This is where I would make an educated guess that many instructors use the "wheel" to try to explain the individuals’ problem, when in fact all they need is rest.

I also ask how many times do they think Tiger Woods has "swung" his driver in order to become number one in the world? Want to be a great shooter, all one needs to do is put in the time. Learn how to do it right the first time and then its all about practice, conditioning etc.

There is more than one individual on this board that can place a pistol bullet through the same hole, not a shot group, the same hole at 5-7 meters. They know what it takes and they also know it takes practice, a lot of dry firing, and more practice to accomplish this feat all day long, every time.

Team Sergeant

If you are a trainer, read this, read it again and know it. Understanding this, being able to recognize fatigue in students and setting up your training accordingly will maximize the productivity of your range time.

Thank you, TS.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think that's the biggest post I've ever seen you make. LOL

I changed my set-up tonight. I put a MM-designed, Emdom-produced 6o4 on the weak side of my vest chest. It's right above the M4 pouches now. I have only dry fired it so far, but I think I'm going to like it. I'll shoot it some then let you guys know my thoughts later. I need kg to take the pics. I don't know about carrying 4 in it. What I'm thinking is I will load out of it and then have one on the near side by itself, then two in the other. Seems that the one will fit the bill as your emergency reload pouch. The top folds back and the retaining band seems to hold it in there without being too tight.

It's going to take me a while to get used to it, but I think will be eventually be just the ticket.

Great comments by all.

[kgoerz]

It speaks! And well....

I and home spending time with the wife so I have plenty of time to post.........

[CDRODA396]

This is an excellent thread, tons of great information, especially from the instructor point of view. Unfortunately, I wasnt lucky enough to attend any of the Army's/SF finer shooting schools, but have come around once I retired and actually have time to invest in the range.

One drill I particularily like, and credit where credit is due, I found on the internet one day, at:

personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=dottorture.php&PHPSESSID=7340b c370bf83de5c46f400b026d0659

and goes like...

This is a marksmanship drill, fired at 3 yards or further. Targets are ten 2" dots numbered. A total of 50 rounds is needed. You will perform: 22 draws and holster, depending on magazine capacity 5-10 administrative or speed reloads, obtain 83 sight pictures and press the trigger 50 times.

Dot #1- Draw and fire one string of 5 rounds for best group. One hole if possible, total 5 rounds.
Dot #2- Draw and fire 1 shot, holster and repeat X4, total 5 rounds.
Dot #3 and 4- Draw and fire 1 shot on #3, then 1 shot on 4, holster and repeat X4, total 8 rounds.
Dot #5- Draw and fire string of 5 rounds, strong hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #6 and 7- Draw and fire 2 shots on #6, then 2 on #7, holster, repeat X4, total 16 rounds.
Dot #8- From ready or retention, fire five shots, weak hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #9 and 10- Draw and fire 1 shots on #9, speed reload, fire 1 shots on #10, holster and repeat X3, total 6 rounds.
When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect.

The only modification I made was on Dot #5, I fire/recover x 5, versus a string of 5, and the same on Dot #8. The thing I like about it is it covers a lot of basic skills, front sight focus/trigger squeeze, reloads and most importantly strong hand only and weak hand only in a drill packaged to use the same number of rounds in a box of ammo.

I usually shoot this as "warm up" if you will then work on whatever I am focused on for the day. For the average/non-military shooter, I would say this is a HUGE shortcoming. How many times do you go to the range and see someone tack up a target, shoot it 10-15 times, take it down and tack up another and repeat til ammo is gone with no real focus in mind. I try to pick one thing each time I go to the range and work on it, versus just sending lead down-range.

And the target for the Dot Drill... thoughts anyone..?

[dr. mabuse]

CDRODA396, I've used the dot torture. Very humbling. Get it perfect at 3 yards then speed up and so on.

Another amusing one that I used at an LE rifle competition is 5 each 1" dots, horizontally spaced about 1 1/2" apart at 100 yards. You shoot prone with a bolt gun and you have 7 seconds. You have 11 seconds at 200 yards.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by dr. mabuse

CDRODA396, I've used the dot torture. Very humbling. Get it perfect at 3 yards then speed up and so on. Another amusing one that I used at an LE rifle competition is 5 each 1" dots, horizontally spaced about 1 1/2" apart at 100 yards. You shoot prone with a bolt gun and you have 7 seconds. You have 11 seconds at 200 yards.

Guys:

Three, five, and seven yards for the pistol? 100 and 200 yards for the rifle? Lord Have Mercy.

I kind of figure it like this. If I have to shoot someone at five yards with the pistol, I surely won't be trying to hold a one hole group. If I have to shoot someone at 100 or 200 yards with a rifle, a six MOA group will kill him as dead as a one MOA group, particularly if you shoot him with about fifty rounds of 5.56 or 7.62 from a machinegun.

If I have to go 'South Paw', it means my 'North Paw' is 'Deadlined for Parts' and that is a bad thing, most likely accompanied by severe pain, loss of blood and other things that interfere with the Four Marksmanship Fundamentals. Enough of things to render South Paw shooting little more than intimidating an enemy with noise and the potential for a hit.

As I don't claim to be anything more than a soldier, I won't get involved in LEA types of scenarios as the LEA has their rules and soldiers have their rules -- and the two don't meet -- ever -- and not even in the most extreme of LEA situations. You guys withdraw if shot at. We attack. You guys have to be ensured of a one minute hold or you are wise not to shoot. We shoot with anything and everything from the rifle to the 155. You care about law suits and we don't.

The only thing in common is that both the LEA and Joe loses in the media, no matter how just their cause.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Guys:

Three, five, and seven yards for the pistol? 100 and 200 yards for the rifle? Lord Have Mercy.

IThe only thing in common is that both the LEA and Joe loses in the media, no matter how just their cause.

Gene

I could not agree more.

A statistic I have heard is that over 90% of police longrifle shots are under 100m and we all know that 99% of handgun fights are 21 feet or less.

Police are not trained to be offensive, just "tactical"

Now that does not mean we cannot teach them to be as accurate as possible to do their jobs. I'd actually do not want them "spraying and praying" while attempting to take down "one" badguy......

(We just had a cop accidentally kill a 5 year old in a gun battle here in the Phoenix area just a month or two ago. Better training could have prevented the accident......)

[NousDefionsDoc]

We shot the dot torture (modified) a few weeks ago. The Instructors really liked it, so we will be doing it again.

I agree Gene, but I look at it this way" One hole (or really good groups) at 3, 5, 7 10 will probably spread to 6" (or better) under two-way range duress. And we have to have a goal to shoot for in training, so it might as well be a good one.

[TF Kilo]

I'm going to try out the dot torture next time I'm out shooting. Targets I can just print out and have a stack of are nice...

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by TF Kilo

I'm going to try out the dot torture next time I'm out shooting. Targets I can just print out and have a stack of are nice...

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

New gun?

What model?

Where are the pics?

You can knock together a decent target stand out of 2x4s and a couple of pieces of PVC pipe.

TR

[TF Kilo]

Puma 92 lever action .454 Casull.

The wife had been drooling over it in the past, I saved my hide when I showed up with the new carbine by turning her frown upside down by tossing her the box and saying "STFU I didn't leave you out"

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by TF Kilo

Puma 92 lever action .454 Casull.

The wife had been drooling over it in the past, I saved my hide when I showed up with the new carbine by turning her frown upside down by tossing her the box and saying "STFU I didn't leave you out"

Nice shootin' iron.

I just picked up a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. Got some 525 grain hard cast bullets to load up for it when I get the chance.

As far as shooting drills go, I would venture that the drills for a bullseye shooter are not the same as those for an IPSC shooter which are not the same as for a LEO, which are not the same as for an SF soldier.

Training starts with an analysis of the skills required for the intended purpose, and then maps a route to acquire and ingrain the specific skills needed. Olympic class sprinters do not use the same routine as marathon runners. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice does. And as I was recently told, look for TTPs that work 100% of the time, in 100% of the conditions. Dark, light, hot, cold, amped up, tired, kitted up, naked, it has to work all of the time. I am trying to get rid of some old habits, and it is not easy.

HTH.

TR

[CDRODA396]

The thought just occurred to me that this might need to be its own thread and not a hi-jack of a shooting drills thread...if so deemed, Admins please move as appropriate...THX.

Originally Posted by TF Kilo

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

I built a couple target stands out of PVC plumbing tubing from a design I saw at the local "Fun Shoots" down in Tampa. You can get the tubing at any Home Depot, Lowe's (no sponsorship or plug intended ) You need one or two 10" lengths, I think 2" diameter (the size a 1x4 will slide snuggly down into), then two "four-way" connectors (the ones that have two connections flowing straight through, then two connections perpendicular to the straight through ones, at a 90 degree angle to each other...if that makes sense?).

The four-way connectors are placed on the ground, oriented so the "straight-through" portion runs front to back (up and down range), one of the remaining two openings is oriented up, and the remaining opening is oriented to the inside (or towards the other four way connector if you will). Cut a cross piece of the tubing the same width as an IPSC standard target (plus an inch or so on either side to go into the connector) and connect the two pieces. Then cut four 18"+/- pieces and insert them into the two front to back connections on each side. You know have an "H" with the horizontal bar of the "H" the width of an IPSC target, and the two parralell legs approx a yard long. Then take two 12" pieces and place them in the connection oriented skyward on each side.

Now a 1x4 can be placed in each side, in the connector pointed skyward, they will be separated by the width of an IPSC target so you can staple the target to the uprights with a staple gun. Or you can use any cardboard cut to size.

You can also pick up end PVC caps, and if its windy out or you are shooting the .454, fill the legs along the ground with sand, cap them and you have a weighted stand.

The whole thing will dissassemble and go in the trunk of your car in minutes. If you hit one of the 1x4's or piece of PVC, just run down to the local hardware store and pick up a replacement. I believe 10' of the correct diameter tubing is about $3, and the two four-way connectors are about $4 each.

This is of course for the budget minded, I would much rather have a plate rack, a couple of rotating, metal target holders, some swingers, movers, etc. Unfortunately, my "fixed income," and small, inside the city limits backyard wont allow it.

I would take some digital pics and post them, but I just moved and am sitting on the one folding chair I brought with me, typing on the computer sitting on the cooler I brought and waiting on my HHG's, so no digital camera or targets are currently available!