U.S. Pastor Terry Jones Burns Quran, Stirs Up Violence

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What does victory look like in a war between civilizations?

Phyrric.

Richard

[akv]

AKV said:

Quote:
The notion "these people" specifically Muslims are as a whole complicit in the acts of their own wolves, and thus holistically culturally inferior, to the point it can be rationalized " nuke em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark" is both singularly dull, and unworthy of our legacy as Americans. We are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the people that took on this most evil regime of "Supermen" and beat the ever-living tar out of it. This is a different type of war and a different type of enemy, we need to evolve and adapt to meet this threat, and we will, without forgetting who we are, the ten-fold greater threat our ancestors overcame, and with full cognizance of the dangers of "possession".

Originally Posted by Dennisw

This viewpoint is interesting to me in that it is probably represents the mainstream viewpoint in America. To a degree, it could be described as refined, but I would venture say it is easier to ascribe to this philosophy if one has very little skin in the game. Justifying the "evolve and adapt philosophy" (while more Americans die and are wounded) based upon the ideology of the WWII generation is IMO a false argument. Wasn't it the same generation who dropped two atom bombs on Japan?

Dennis,

I can't speak for what constitutes the mainstream view, though I couldn't disagree more with your analysis. My thoughts are grounded in the notion besides just our skin, actually we are " all in" as far as this game goes. American interests and the security of our republic both internally and externally trumps all in my book.

First the external component, perhaps you interprerted my aversion to "nuking them till they glow" etc as aversion to brutal force, thinking well he is from San Francisco... Nothing could be further from the truth, nuking Hiroshima and Nagaski were both efficient and necessary and saved lives, simply project the casualty figures from Iwo and Okinawa, and the Japanese tenacity at the time into a fight the scale of operation Olympus and the casualties both military and civilian become staggering. If we could terminate AQ and the fundamentalist Islamists with nukes, chemical weapons, or pork sandwiches, it wouldn't bother me a whit. The threat in Japan was confined to their populace and islands, and their civilians were supporting their war effort against us, in that capacity and the environment of that war, it sucks but those are the breaks.

In contrast, we are not at war with 1.2 billion unified Muslims, if we were things would be very different, though we could end up down this path if we allow ourselves to lose our composure, objectivity, and discipline and fall into the trap of labeling all Muslims as incorrigible, "subhuman" or whatever is needed to justify unilateral action. When you go down the path of cultural superiority, "they are just savages, subhuman", it's an evil destructive slippery slope. Where does this end? History shows us it can culminate ending up in the realm of wolves not sheepdogs, things like issuing blankets laced with small pox, shipping kids in trains to death camps, or the gang rape of Berlin by Soviet troops. The Nazis fostered such view of their ethnic and cultural superiority, it didn't end well for them and led to acts they will be reviled for, throughout eternity.

There is also the internal component, America is exceptional and great because of her freedom and civil liberties. These must be guarded with equal dilligence. Look at the history of collapsed empires, while all unique they have some similarities, corruption and excessive debt, then economic woe, frustration and anger, which some silver tongued devil stirs into blame onto a particular segment of society as the scapegoat, the resulting strife is the death knell of republics. At the point and time we decide all Muslims are "subhuman" without judging them on their individual merits, the elephant in the room becomes our own Muslim population, how long before we begin turning on our own, and where does it end? What is a greater threat to America, the Taliban in the hills of Afghanistan, or internal discord, the violation of the tenets and stability of civil liberties we hold dearly, which are the cornerstone of our republic.

So while we may still disagree, perhaps I have elucidated my views, America First.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by akv

....In contrast, we are not at war with 1.2 billion unified Muslims, if we were things would be very different, though we could end up down this path if we allow ourselves to lose our composure, objectivity, and discipline and fall into the trap of labeling all Muslims as incorrigible, "subhuman" or whatever is needed to justify unilateral action................

But they are with us. That is the problem. To be a Muslim is to believe the Koran - I know it's hard for some to understand but the Muslims do believe.

That's what it is to be a "Good Muslim". Listen to the Imams - there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. To the Imams a "Moderate Muslim" is a bad Muslim and will be dealt with after the infidels.

akv you keep thinking I'm saying this. I'm not. I'm simply repeating what Muslim leaders say to their people.

Oh, by the way, you do know the Ivory Coast has a religious slant the news is not talking about? The country is 38% Muslim, 32% Christian and the rest is local, animalistic or none. That's another one of those "Which way are things going" Countries. We'll be hearing some more from that area if anyone is listening.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

If you would, please tease out what you mean by "destroyed." Does one quantify destruction in military, economic, social, political, and demographic terms? Or does it also require forays into the "squishy" realms of culture, psychology, and religiosity (among others)?

Peregrino said it best. The particulars of the destruction matter not at all.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Pete

That's what it is to be a "Good Muslim". Listen to the Imams - there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. To the Imams a "Moderate Muslim" is a bad Muslim and will be dealt with after the infidels. akv you keep thinking I'm saying this. I'm not. I'm simply repeating what Muslim leaders say to their people.

Pete,

I hear you, but respectfully which Muslim leaders, because we could stack up Imams with polar opposite different interpretations of the scripture, and let them fly at each other till they were blue in the face. In a way it's not centralized like Catholicism, where the Pope is the head honcho, even it was human beings each develop their own hierarchy of identity. Let's say Mussolini busted into the Vatican in 1942 and pressured the Pope to order all American Catholics to join the Axis forces, the response would have been "nice try, bub." When the Iraqis and Iran decided to have a war, they both wheeled out their respective Imams or mullahs who condemned the other. It's depressingly predictable, if you want to build schools for girls in Afghanistan, and you don't bribe the right people, you get a fatwa put on you. Then you have to find another Mullah to supercede this ruling, and you are good.

Pete my question is who are the leaders of Islam that every Muslim follows, UBL, Saddam, Gaddafhi? Nope these are just murderous thugs. If you said well then these other Muslim leaders had better step up louder and be heard, I would agree.

Unfortunately, I can't name the 10 most important or influential leaders of Christianity in the states. But I do know who Pastor Jones is and those Westboro jerks are, I also know they are not leaders any Christians I know would heed at all.

Part of the problem IMO for Islam is it is as fractured as it is diverse.

[Tress]

Originally posted by akv:

Part of the problem IMO for Islam is it is as fractured as it is diverse.

And maybe that is its biggest problem. Some people say that you have to look at the Quran in an historical perspective and others say that is open ended and its verses pertain to all time. There is no longer a central figure or organization that controls how it is interpreted so it is left to whatever wingnut imam that is standing before you. And there does not need to be any serious twisting of its words. They just have to cherry-pick what they want to support their ideas, cause, riot, beheading, suicide, etc.

[Dozer523]

I don't suppose there are Muslims out there who would feel better if we shoved a Koran up his ass. But, I'd sure like to. (THEN set it on fire.)

[Tress]

Originally posted by Dozer523

I don't suppose there are Muslims out there who would feel better if we shoved a Koran up his ass. But, I'd sure like too. (THEN set it on fire.)

LOL..... You really have to not be so shy, come out of that shell of yours and learn not to sugar-coat things.

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by akv

Pete,

I hear you, but respectfully which Muslim leaders, because we could stack up Imams with polar opposite different interpretations of the scripture, and let them fly at each other till they were blue in the face.

Be very leery of the stack that hates the West. That stack will probably be rigged with explosives. Unfortunately, to determine which stack hates you, you will have to utilize your technique of judging each one by his own merits, which will place you well within his range fan.

Or, you could stand off a fair piece, and burn a Koran.

[WhiskeyRomeo]

...because despite having military leaders with decades of exemplary service and business and political leaders who have attained positions of significant national and global power, all of that has been trumped. Apparently, the real forces influencing global events are a pastor of a made-up church and a Rolling Stones reporter who probably can't pass a urinalysis. Nice. My high school guidance counselor was completely out to lunch.

[1stindoor]

I thought this was a good fit in this discussion.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...alitarian.html

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

I thought this was a good fit in this discussion.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...alitarian.html

WOW. Part 2 was tough. There is an old cliche', "Every one is entitled to their opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts". Kind of hard to argue with her when she is reading directly from the Koran.

One writer opined that this gal "ovulates .45 ACP rounds". Might be right.

One battalion of women like this would be scary.

[nousdefions]

Bacon Bookmarks -- Classic

Also check-out her web page Ann Barnhardt

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by nousdefions

Bacon Bookmarks -- Classic

Also check-out her web page Ann Barnhardt

Beat me by 5 minutes...I was about to post the same thing. Did you see her PINK AR-15? I just know there's someone else reading this thread that's seething. lol.

[orion5]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

Did you see her PINK AR-15? I just know there's someone else reading this thread that's seething. lol.

1stindoor.....normally that would be true! But WOW. This Ann Barnhardt is something else.

I'm mad as hell about our American politicians, like Graham, wanting to back down to Islam, but I can't imagine myself being brave enough to make a youtube video and hand out my home address and say come and get me you jackasses. I'm in awe of what she just did. It inspires me and I hope it inspires many others.

As far as I'm concerned, she makes pink look cool!