Navy intends to let women serve on subs.........

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Razor

For luge, the men's start point was moved to the women's start point, and the women started at the junior start point: http://www.kgw.com/sports/Mens-luge-...-84305827.html

For those sports where the course was the same for both genders (e.g., alpine, nordic, snowboard, skicross, etc.), you'll probably also note a significant difference in run times, jump height and other performance measures, almost always in the favor of men. Given this, I again ask how anyone can say there isn't a substantial difference in physical performance between genders?

I have no doubt that many women resent being treated differently in sports. My question, then, is why not "fight the power" if equality is truly so important? Yes, the boat might get rocked, but I seem to recall from my history lessons that women's suffrage wasn't easily earned, nor were many of the efforts in promoting and attaining gender equality in many aspects of life. Where are the demands that standards be made equal in sports? Where are the protests, withdrawls from competitions to make a statement, grass roots "equality" leagues comprised of women and girls that refuse to be marginalized by misogynistic conceptions of women's ability? Why is it too hard or too dangerous to rock the boat in sporting competitions, where second place doesn't equate to a flag-draped coffin, but openly and vocally demanding changes in the military for equal "career opportunities" is not only acceptable but enthusiastically encouraged by women's equality groups?

All good questions. In my expereince instead of withdrawing in protest, we did what we could within the networks we had. If you pull out in protest every tournament etc that comes up, are your really gaining anything? Or is it better to work quietly within the system, and take the little "wins" as they come, and continue to work towards more equality?

When I was was playing rugby, there wasn't enough indoor fields at school for all the teams that needed them to train. So the women's team trained with the men's team about 50% of the time. Did we get our butts kicked alot of the time? Yes. Did I walk away from practice feeling like I got hit by a mac truck, you bet because the guys didn't hold back just because we were female.

In the end, even though we didn't play with the guys team in games, because no one else within the federation was doing what we were doing, we were phenomenally better than any other female team out there. We were quicker, we were meaner, and we were stronger for having practiced with the guys.

There are enough of us that have said "enough" throughout the years that things are moving. Maybe at a snails pace, but I can tell you women's athletics have moved forward since I graduated. It may take another 20-30 years, but eventually you are going to have women on men's professional teams. Throwing our hands up, stomping our feet, dropping out of games/tournaments and crying that it isn't fair to whoever will listen isn't going to change things. Working from the inside out, will, eventually be the difference.

When little girls such as mine, start playing on the boys teams at such a young age, and come up with them into HS and College level athletics, that is when the change will be acknowledged. If the choice is playing with the girls, or not playing at all, you can bet she will be playing.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by afchic

......... It may take another 20-30 years, but eventually you are going to have women on men's professional teams. Throwing our hands up, stomping our feet, dropping out of games/......

So you're OK with opening up women's sports to men? As long as the men can beat out the women they can play on the womens teams and in the women's sports? Tennis? Golf?

Will there then have to be a quota for a women's team to be called a women's team? Got to have at least one?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by afchic

There are enough of us that have said "enough" throughout the years that things are moving. Maybe at a snails pace, but I can tell you women's athletics have moved forward since I graduated. It may take another 20-30 years, but eventually you are going to have women on men's professional teams. Throwing our hands up, stomping our feet, dropping out of games/tournaments and crying that it isn't fair to whoever will listen isn't going to change things. Working from the inside out, will, eventually be the difference.

Respectfully, I do not see this happening in any sport where endurance or physical strength are primary attributes, unless every team is required to take a certain number of otherwise unqualified women as PC demands.

Nature makes us what we are, and like it or not, testosterone is a powerful drug. Stronger bones, bigger muscles, and better oxygenation rule, most sports are built around those characteristics. Women break down under physical activity more easily than men. Wanting people to be on a level playing field will not make it so. Women have been participating in the same track and field events as man for decades, how many of them currently hold world records over male counterparts?

Title IX can require that women's sports be resourced the same as men's. You cannot mandate that the participants are equal in skills. A good high school men's basketball team can, and has embarrassed women's college teams.

Women will never play in the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB without some sort of gender norming, publicity stunt, or as a token at a position where strength, endurance and speed are not factors.

NASCAR, shooting sports, bowling, etc., maybe.

If you require non-gender segregated teams, and want wins, you are going to see the end of women in the sports.

I love women, but accept reality. I will never birth a baby, and the best woman (even if it is my daughter) will never be able to hit harder, run faster, throw farther, jump higher, or lift more than the best man. Nor will the averages. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of all evidence.

TR

[Sigaba]

FWIW/FYI, several years ago, PBS aired a multi part documentary called Carrier, that centered around the Nimitz (CVN-68) and its crew. IMO, episode three, "Super Secrets," available here, uses the experiences of the crew to illustrate the issues of military effectiveness, professionalism, sexuality, gender, gender identity, youth, race, social practices, and cultural beliefs that have been touched upon in this thread.

For those in favor of expanded combat roles for women in the armed services, this episode may provide food for thought. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

If not now, then when? And why not now?

MOO, these two questions are of critical importance. Telling a cohort of Americans "not now" when they ask about participating in an activity that they see as vital to their sense of self-efficacy can have historically significant consequences.

The reasons for opposing expanded roles for women in the armed services center around concerns for military effectiveness. But what happens if those concerns are addressed by technology, by improvements to the art and science of war, by shifting political sensibilities, by changing cultural views, or by contingency?

Originally Posted by Pete

Sounds PC to me. And is PC the way a military should be run?

QP Pete, with respect, when in American military/naval/aerospace history have matters of policy not been determined by the politically correct sensibilities of the day?

[echoes]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Women will never play in the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB without some sort of gender norming, publicity stunt, or as a token at a position where strength, endurance and speed are not factors.

NASCAR, shooting sports, bowling, etc., maybe.

If you require non-gender segregated teams, and want wins, you are going to see the end of women in the sports.

I love women, but accept reality. I will never birth a baby, and the best woman (even if it is my daughter) will never be able to hit harder, run faster, throw farther, jump higher, or lift more than the best man. Nor will the averages. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of all evidence.

TR

Agree Sir.

And agree as a woman who accepts responsibility for her own situation, finances, occupation, housing, and carrer...as it is no one else's but my own!



Ladies, Fact is fact, and in this case, the male presenter of the above facts can back it up!

Holly

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Pete

So you're OK with opening up women's sports to men? As long as the men can beat out the women they can play on the womens teams and in the women's sports? Tennis? Golf?

Will there then have to be a quota for a women's team to be called a women's team? Got to have at least one?

Of course I am ok with opening up women's teams to men. Somehow I think that too many men will not even attempt it because it would be an afront to their machisimo.

I don't agree with quotas for anything. Either you meet the standards or you don't. Doesn't matter your gender/race/religion/sexuality etc....

My daughter didn't make the Jr. High soccer team or volleyball team this year because she got beat out by some boys that were better than her. I told her we will hit the field/court so that next year she will be better prepared to kick the boys butts. From what I can tell, the girls that didn't make the team took it in stride and are doing what they can to be better prepared next year.

The boys that got beat out by girls didn't have quite the same sportsman like take on the turn of events.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Respectfully, I do not see this happening in any sport where endurance or physical strength are primary attributes, unless every team is required to take a certain number of otherwise unqualified women as PC demands.

Nature makes us what we are, and like it or not, testosterone is a powerful drug. Stronger bones, bigger muscles, and better oxygenation rule, most sports are built around those characteristics. Women break down under physical activity more easily than men. Wanting people to be on a level playing field will not make it so. Women have been participating in the same track and field events as man for decades, how many of them currently hold world records over male counterparts?

Title IX can require that women's sports be resourced the same as men's. You cannot mandate that the participants are equal in skills. A good high school men's basketball team can, and has embarrassed women's college teams.

Women will never play in the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB without some sort of gender norming, publicity stunt, or as a token at a position where strength, endurance and speed are not factors.

NASCAR, shooting sports, bowling, etc., maybe.

If you require non-gender segregated teams, and want wins, you are going to see the end of women in the sports.

I love women, but accept reality. I will never birth a baby, and the best woman (even if it is my daughter) will never be able to hit harder, run faster, throw farther, jump higher, or lift more than the best man. Nor will the averages. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of all evidence.

TR

You are right, you may never see a defensive guard on an NFL team, but I bet you may find a kicker/punter. I have seen some pretty nasty female hockey players in my time.

No standards should not be relaxed to make a quota, either you can meet the standards or you can't. The fact that you are XX or XY should not factor into it.

I doubt you are going to have very many men go out for the women's teams because of the stigma that will be attached to it.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by afchic

You are right, you may never see a defensive guard on an NFL team, but I bet you may find a kicker/punter. I have seen some pretty nasty female hockey players in my time.

No standards should not be relaxed to make a quota, either you can meet the standards or you can't. The fact that you are XX or XY should not factor into it.

I doubt you are going to have very many men go out for the women's teams because of the stigma that will be attached to it.

Very well articulated, afchic!

Holly

[Sacamuelas]

Originally Posted by afchic

You are right, you may never see a defensive guard on an NFL team, but I bet you may find a kicker/punter. I have seen some pretty nasty female hockey players in my time.

No standards should not be relaxed to make a quota, either you can meet the standards or you can't. The fact that you are XX or XY should not factor into it.

I doubt you are going to have very many men go out for the women's teams because of the stigma that will be attached to it.

Actually, I imagine you won't see a female kicker/punter on an NFL team. UNLESS it is a publicity stunt. WHY? The NFL takes the best. An ELITE male kicker/punter will be Bigger/stronger/faster/quicker than an ELITE female. The NFL doesn't take average or above average.

Since NDD isn't on here as much, I'll take a shot at his trademark sarcasm.
What the hell is a "defensive guard" in football??? haha

FWIW, The only two positions I want a girl to play on my football team is as Center with a TightEnd. LOL

[Pete]

Originally Posted by afchic

.........I doubt you are going to have very many men go out for the women's teams because of the stigma that will be attached to it.

What's stigma when you can make a living doing what you love or are good at?

Do pro women's sports allow men now? I'd say no.

Do pro men's teams allow women now? I'd say yes.

IIRC there was a female kicker that played a season or two, may have just been college. But if a female showed up at tryouts and beat out all the men she would be hired.

Didn't some high speed female golfer want to play with the men? Chin? But the arguement of using the female vs male Tee kinda' struck a sour note.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Pete

IIRC there was a female kicker that played a season or two, may have just been college. But if a female showed up at tryouts and beat out all the men she would be hired.

Duke had a female tryout for spring practice.

She was later cut before the season started, and admitted that she wasn't the strongest, or most accurate of the five kickers who tried out, but she sued for being cut anyway, and won $2,000,000 in the legal lottery. I guess she figured that every team dresses several extra placekickers.

I am sure that made other football coaches want to give women a shot at playing.

I do not see them as placekickers on a competitive team, as noted, there are better male kickers out there. Maybe a small college team might take the risk. I do not see it happening in the pros.

TR

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Duke had a female tryout for spring practice.

She was later cut before the season started, and admitted that she wasn't the strongest, or most accurate of the five kickers who tried out, but she sued for being cut anyway, and won $2,000,000 in the legal lottery. I guess she figured that every team dresses several extra placekickers.

TR

It is BS like that, that make it hard for girls who play the game by the rules and understand that they might get cut, just like a guy gets cut... I blame it more on the lawyers.. If Duke were to not be so concerned about PC and just fight the suit then a few lawyers might think twice.. how stupid...

It's the Kate Wilders of this world that just piss me off no effing end.
AM

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Pete

What's stigma when you can make a living doing what you love or are good at?

Do pro women's sports allow men now? I'd say no.

Do pro men's teams allow women now? I'd say yes.

IIRC there was a female kicker that played a season or two, may have just been college. But if a female showed up at tryouts and beat out all the men she would be hired.

Didn't some high speed female golfer want to play with the men? Chin? But the arguement of using the female vs male Tee kinda' struck a sour note.

If a man tried out for a womans' sport and didn't make it, when he was the best, I would support him being on the team, the same as I would support the other side. Like I said, I doubt you are going to have many males willing to put themselves on display to try out for the "girls" team because of the stigma associated with it. The guys on the "guys" team would ride them so hard they would never show up for practice Think about it. What would one of you all do if son came up to you and said, dad I don't want to play on the guys team, I want to play with the girls, either because I am not good enough to play with the other guys, or because I just prefer being with the girls instead.

[afchic]

With all this talk of gender issues, I wonder what you all think about women being at the service academies.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Sacamuelas

Actually, I imagine you won't see a female kicker/punter on an NFL team. UNLESS it is a publicity stunt. WHY? The NFL takes the best. An ELITE male kicker/punter will be Bigger/stronger/faster/quicker than an ELITE female. The NFL doesn't take average or above average.

Since NDD isn't on here as much, I'll take a shot at his trademark sarcasm.
What the hell is a "defensive guard" in football??? haha

FWIW, The only two positions I want a girl to play on my football team is as Center with a TightEnd. LOL

YOu got me, I should have said tackle.