The Guns of Spring

[Sigaba]

I have several questions. These questions assume a solution that reconciles the differing views between TR and Pete on the one hand and Richard and Dozer on the other.

• Would the members of a school's faculty and staff with CCW permits be a matter of public record? Or would the public record simply indicate that Ivanhoe Elementary was a certified campus on which some faculty and staff members might have fire arms?
• How would school districts mitigate the potential risks of a faculty member shooting a student accidentally? Would municipalities need to raise taxes to pay for increased insurance premiums?
• Would stakeholders, including parents, teachers' unions, students, area residents, and school boards ever sign off on allowing faculty members to have weapons on campus?

[Dozer523]

At "group session" this would be when someone would say, "Thank you for sharing."

[perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Would the members of a school's faculty and staff with CCW permits be a matter of public record? Or would the public record simply indicate that Ivanhoe Elementary was a certified campus on which some faculty and staff members

The debate on making CCW permits public record is taking place now. Luckily, the idea appears to be getting shot down in each locale.

In my eyes, making these stupid permits we're forced to get public record is just another slap in the face. It hurts the personal security of the law-abiding individual while also giving criminals a shopping list of which residences to loot for guns.

[*]How would school districts mitigate the potential risks of a faculty member shooting a student accidentally? Would municipalities need to raise taxes to pay for increased insurance premiums?

Good question! Especially in today's lawsuit-happy environment. I'd be interested in hearing Dozer's (and any other EDU folks') opinions on this.

[*]Would stakeholders, including parents, teachers' unions, students, area residents, and school boards ever sign off on allowing faculty members to have weapons on campus?

For what it's worth, in many states its legal for CCW permit holders to CCW on a school campus and the schools can't do a damned thing about it other than "recommend" CCW holders don't CCW. Predictably, this is a highly-controversial topic and there are some differing legal opinions even between districts within a state.

This is a great topic and excellent food for (my) work-related thought. Keep em coming, if the powers-that-be are okay with it.

[Richard]

At "group session" this would be when someone would say, "Thank you for sharing."

"De nada."

Richard's $.02

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

At "group session" this would be when someone would say, "Thank you for sharing."

Are our desks in a circle?

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

I have several questions. These questions assume a solution that reconciles the differing views between TR and Pete on the one hand and Richard and Dozer on the other.

• Would the members of a school's faculty and staff with CCW permits be a matter of public record? Or would the public record simply indicate that Ivanhoe Elementary was a certified campus on which some faculty and staff members might have fire arms?
• How would school districts mitigate the potential risks of a faculty member shooting a student accidentally? Would municipalities need to raise taxes to pay for increased insurance premiums?
• Would stakeholders, including parents, teachers' unions, students, area residents, and school boards ever sign off on allowing faculty members to have weapons on campus?

I just don't know, but from what I've been reading so far I have to agree with Dozer and Richard. Their arguments make a lot of sense to me..............

GB TFS

[GratefulCitizen]

Increasing the actual rate of armed citizens is the best way to have someone available to counter a nihilistic rampage killer.
The fact that they seek out groups can be used against them.

If the actual armed rate were a mere 3%:
-In a random group of 23 people, it is more likely than not that at least 1 person is armed.
-In a random group of 100 people, there is a 95% probability that at least 1 person is armed.
-In a random group of 10 people, there is still a 1 in 4 chance that at least 1 person will be armed.


Finding an able and willing 3% is not a problem.
The problem is "defenseless victim" zones.

[Richard]

Finding an able and willing 3% is not a problem.
The problem is "defenseless victim" zones.

And I'm thinking the problem is best posited in your aptly chosen avatar.

Richard's $.02

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

Are our desks in a circle?

The Wagons are!

[Razor]

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

I just don't know, but from what I've been reading so far I have to agree with Dozer and Richard. Their arguments make a lot of sense to me...

Then by extension, it would make sense to outlaw CCW permits altogether for similar reasons. The danger presented to innocent bystanders by an "untrained, non-professional" armed citizen as characterized by some in this thread, combined with the potential for confusion over who is the actual criminal by other armed citizens looking to help or law enforcement response units makes supporting a person's right to carry a concealed weapon, or any weapon for that matter, far too dangerous to the general public. What makes a school any different? If we're concerned about public safety due to the reasons listed in this thread regarding concealed weapons carry, then that concern shouldn't stop at the edge of the playground.

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Increasing the actual rate of armed citizens is the best way to have someone available to counter a nihilistic rampage killer.
The fact that they seek out groups can be used against them.

If the actual armed rate were a mere 3%:
-In a random group of 23 people, it is more likely than not that at least 1 person is armed.
-In a random group of 100 people, there is a 95% probability that at least 1 person is armed.
-In a random group of 10 people, there is still a 1 in 4 chance that at least 1 person will be armed.


Finding an able and willing 3% is not a problem.
The problem is "defenseless victim" zones.

I couldn't agree more, and I don't think it could have been put better than you did, well done!

[perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Razor

Then by extension, it would make sense to outlaw CCW permits altogether for similar reasons. The danger presented to innocent bystanders by an "untrained, non-professional" armed citizen as characterized by some in this thread, combined with the potential for confusion over who is the actual criminal by other armed citizens looking to help or law enforcement response units makes supporting a person's right to carry a concealed weapon, or any weapon for that matter, far too dangerous to the general public. What makes a school any different? If we're concerned about public safety due to the reasons listed in this thread regarding concealed weapons carry, then that concern shouldn't stop at the edge of the playground.

Might as well take the rest of our God-given rights away as well. The 4th hinders the government from arresting criminals. The 5th hinders the government from prosecuting criminals. Speech can be quite dangerous, see Hitler, Stalin... Obama

People have to learn to think about, and be held responsible for their actions. This shouldn't even be up to the government, it's not one of their rights.

Respectfully,
Per

[Dozer523]

keep it up. . .
don't make me come back there

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

keep it up. . .
don't make me come back there

In all seriousness...let's suppose, purely for the sake of discussion, that the law is enacted and CCW holders can carry firearms on school campuses.

Have you any thoughts on what additional training (at a practical level) might somewhat reduce your concerns?

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Razor

Then by extension, it would make sense to outlaw CCW permits altogether for similar reasons. The danger presented to innocent bystanders by an "untrained, non-professional" armed citizen as characterized by some in this thread, combined with the potential for confusion over who is the actual criminal by other armed citizens looking to help or law enforcement response units makes supporting a person's right to carry a concealed weapon, or any weapon for that matter, far too dangerous to the general public. What makes a school any different? If we're concerned about public safety due to the reasons listed in this thread regarding concealed weapons carry, then that concern shouldn't stop at the edge of the playground.

Razor, with respect, I disagree with this 'by extension' argument.

Just because a municipality will not allow an establishment offering various forms of adult entertainment, gas stations, parking structures, liquor stores or other land uses near schools doesn't mean that the city in question is against free speech, favors prohibition, or opposes commercial enterprises.