Shooting Drills

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by lksteve

thanks...

Yo -- LK:


Took a look at that wheel thing on that PDF file. They got the 'hand' backwards. The one that says 'left handed shooter' is really for right handed shooters and vice versa.

We have one of these in GTA format next to our urinals. Put up by a former cadre of ours. Big GTA -- about two foot square so big enough that I can read it while pissing.

That wheel thing more relates to one hand firing of the pistol than two. Put two hands on the pistol and that wheel really doesn't work too well.

My biggest problem with such devices is that they tells a fellow everything he is doing wrong instead of telling him what to do right.

I troubleshoot human error using ball and dummy to see where the barrel moves on the shot, and then isolate the part of the body causing that movement. Normally some adjustment in position followed by mental discipline gives a fix. After it is fixed enough to gain confidence that it is fixed, it becomes a mental discipline issue.

This whole thing is more of a mental game than a physical one. Fun though.

Gene

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

We have one of these in GTA format next to our urinals. Put up by a former cadre of ours. Big GTA -- about two foot square so big enough that I can read it while pissing.

if you are looking at the wheel while you are pissing, how can you hit the Hillary urinal target...? or J*** F****...?

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

This whole thing is more of a mental game than a physical one. Fun though.

the truth is, i've never seen the wheel, never did that much off-hand pistol shooting...i am curious about learning and teaching aids and when i have the chance, especially if i find something that's cheap (read free), i'll try it out before i send it to the land fill...

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by lksteve

the truth is, i've never seen the wheel, never did that much off-hand pistol shooting...i am curious about learning and teaching aids and when i have the chance, especially if i find something that's cheap (read free), i'll try it out before i send it to the land fill...

The only teaching aid I use, besides targets, is a snap cap.

Come down to Phoenix (during the winter/spring) and I'll take you out for free.

TS

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The only teaching aid I use, besides targets, is a snap cap.

you are invalidating 22 years of GTA-based training and instruction...

the more i look at the wheel, the more i think using it as a target might be entertaining...

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Come down to Phoenix (during the winter/spring) and I'll take you out for free.

hell, when is it winter in Phoenix...?
i couldn't impose...there would have to be libations involved...

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Roger Brother Gene, as usual we agree more than disagree.

I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis and will only offer this in response - yes, I no longer have to think about them - unless I miss. When I do miss, it is my fault and I can usually trace it back to one of The Eight. I don't know of another way to get to unconscious competence than starting from the beginning and working through The Eight until they can be applied without conscious thought. If you have suggestions, please, pleeease share.

Stance - I don't kick feet after the first 1 minute. In fact, I will make them change their stance (strong foot forward, feet parallel, etc.) to show them they shoot from the waist up and they don't have to worry about where their feet are. The Eight are relative - The Stance doesn't have to be a book stance, as long as you have a relatively stable platform - but you do have to have a Stance. Does that make sense? Good firing position to me means being able to engage from the best possible position for the situation. Not specific degrees and angles.

The ability to pull the trigger means to me the ability to pull the trigger correctly. When he sees the barrel pointing at the target means he sees the barrel by way of its component part the front sight.

Speed, efficiency, economy of motion and the combat application of The Eight - all of which I call elegance - can only come from hours of repetitions as far as I know. But in order to get good solid hits under stress time after time - consistency - the fundamentals have to be applied. To do it in a fight, they have to be applied unconsciously

Breathing is a good one. A lot of people say it doesn't apply in combat shooting. I agree it doesn't apply to the individual shot the way we do with sniper shots. But I do breath when shooting. And I try to get breath control taken care of outside. A couple of deep ones and then a rhythm. And then another big one when done for the moment.

SFAUC, SFARTEAC, no combat shooting school in the world will give one the level of competence of which we are talking. They will give one the basics. competence will only come from hours and hours of practice. With a coach where possible - alone if not. Shooting is an individual skill to me.

NDD:

Seems to me you are using the eight factors to your advantage. They are your foundation and you know when to use them. I don't think you can go wrong with them. I just caution fellows who are working with 'new shooters' to be careful with what you put into their heads. Kind of like when some moron introduces 'Spin Drift' into the heads of shooters whose performance doesn't match that of their rifle and ammo. Shooters who are having difficulty tend to use such things as an excuse for poor performance or focus themselves on things that have no meaning.

I really like your methods concerning body position. I believe the same way but just have different words for it. I view the barrel aligned via sights to the eye as an 'aligned system' of eyes and sights. This system one shifts around his lower body much like a tank turret and main gun. To a point of course and then you shift your whole body. I really stress eye sight alignment and developing this aligned system of eyes and sights as anything to allow one to see a sight picture more clearly and to pull the trigger more consistently are good things. As for trigger control, I could care less if the guy straightens out the trigger on an M-16, as long as the barrel remains pointed into the middle of the target when he does so. You have said the same thing -- just a different way of communicating it. To the Army, this is called position. I even call it position and it is a position. The issue seems to be what does a position do for the shooter? Well, to me a position points the aligned system of sights and eyes and lets the shooter move his trigger consistently and perfectly.

I view breath control as something done in order to see the sight picture better, and as a relaxation tool. Guys who are relaxed tend to have more consistent trigger control. Most leaders and even most Joes still view breathing as the ill for failing to have the barrel pointed into the target when the shot is fired. We both know what breathing through a string of rapid fire can do to shots. But only if the shots are fired higher or lower than center. No, I don't advise guys to breath as they fire the shot but nothing says one can't do this and still hold perfect shots. I prefer to do like you describe with short hard breaths and holds followed by deep breaths when possible. I also could care less if a guy takes multiple shots on one breath. Some guys are pretty fast, particularly with the M-68.

I like presenting guys with a few concepts concerning marksmanship and then coach them on using the concepts to achieve marksmanship goals on static and tactical ranges. Today's Four Marksmanship Fundamentals are concept oriented and are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, it takes guys who really know what they are doing in terms of all aspects of training and communication to transform these fundamentals into productive results with large groups of soldiers.

My big issue with the Army in terms of marksmanship training is that the Army focuses on short term solutions instead of long term progress. We try to give the soldier concepts to apply with an opportunity to apply them so he can learn how to train himself when he gets the opportunity to fire.

Your last comment on competence is right on the money. Takes a whole bunch of discipline and patience for a guy to develop into a top of the line shooter.

Now another 299 pages and I have my book!

He, he, he.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by lksteve

you are invalidating 22 years of GTA-based training and instruction...

Yes, in the case of the "wheel" yes.

It's as outdated as the single action six shooter.

Outdated as the Weaver stance.

TS

[stanley_white]

First of all this thread is outstanding...

A few of my thoughts:

1. Start with a 4x4x4 inch wood block. Place said wood block on the dirt / sand mound etc that the bullets impact into once they pass through the paper target. Engage the wood block with a shot or two or three. Upon being shot the wood block will move to a different position. Engage the wood block again. The goal is to keep the wood block moving as much as possible. This is good for getting students used to having to shift their focus from the front sight, to down range to scan for threats / measure the effectiveness of their fire, then back to their front sight to re-engage the target.

2. Simunition kits and protective gear required for this one... Take two students and have them load their weapons with simunitions. Tell the student that on command they will engage each other and the first person who shoots the other wins. Prior to the students engaging each other have them close their eyes and hold their ears as the instructor takes their weapon from them, empties the chamber, presses the magazine release, then returns their weapon to them. When they attempt to engage each other the first student to realize their is a problem and properly executes tap-rack-bang will win.

[stanley_white]

A question about scanning for additional threats to the front...

I have been taught two ways of scanning for additional threats to the front following engaging the target.

Method 1 calls for me returning my pistol to my high center chest (what the USMC HRP program called position two) and scanning by moving my eyes / head only.

Method 2 calls for me to keep the pistol at full arm extension and move the pistol with my eyes as I scan my front.


Which method do you folks prefer and why?

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by stanley_white

Which method do you folks prefer and why?

might as well have the gun follow the line of sight...i was trained to keep the weapon trained on the line of sight...reduces reaction time...no sense in scanning, then aiming...anything you scan should be readily engaged...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Stan:
1. We used to do your woodblock drill with empty ammo boxes. You miss, you have to move back to the next line. Hit and you get to move up.

2. I have seen guys do your SIMS drill as well, with the loser having to take an additional round in the 4th POC.

Scan - I look at it as "My gun is now dirty, I might as well find somebody else to KIA." It is also a way to break out of stress symptoms, mostly tunnel vision. We teach drop the gun slightly (micro amount) to clear line of vision and do it with arms extended and finger on the trigger.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Gene,
Are these the four you use?

LINK

[12B4S]

lk, Take TS up on that offer. You won't find a better one. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, except it was 30 or so years without practice. Some shooting here and there. Not much. Even though it is the end of July, could have gone out shooting the past few days. It was only in the upper 90's. But October and beyond, you should be pretty safe. Hell! I'll come along, so your misery will have company. No problem with the libations.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Gene, Are these the four you use? URL="http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml"]LINK[/URL]

Doc:

Those are the four fundamentals but that is absolutely not how I use them. Once again the Army is trying to force a soldier to do more than two things at one time and that relates to my statements on why the Army can't progress.

Here is how I define them -- when I use them. Sometimes I substitute recoil control in place of breathing if I think recoil control needs to be openly stressed. I am not dogmatic about these things and will change what I use in an instant. They are just a pretty convenient way of describing the things someone needs to do for consistency.

One time I only stresed position and trigger pull. Worked just fine as those two things were what the guys needed. They understood that position was also sight picture as your position ensures good eye sight alignment and points the barrel at your target.

I don't care how a guy points the barrel or pulls the trigger. As long as he gives us the consistent performance we demand for the particular training we are doing.

Here is what I normally emphasize for each one of the four fundamentals. I ignore that the Army wrote about them.

Position: Brings the sights to your eyes and points the barel for you.

Aiming with Consistent Sight Picture: Train your eyes to see what a good sight picture is and ingrain that in your mind.

Trigger Control: When your eyes see a 'good enough' sight picture, move your finger without changing the sight picture.

Breathing: Deep and controlled breathing gives eyes oxygen so you can see your sight picture better. It also relaxes you so you can point the barrel and pull the trigger better. It is a requirement in order to continue to live.

Off to some practice at 300 and probably 500 today!

Gene

[kgoerz]

Like NDD said the scanning the threat area is to break your tunnel vision you acquire in a gunfight and to remove yourself from the threats tunnel vision. Teaching a controlled scan left then right is to install the muscle memory to new shooters to perform a solid follow thru. Like stance and scanning as Shooters become more proficient they will all perform this task a little different. The stance is a guideline for a secure and balanced shooting platform. It is a natural fighting stance. I have seen instructors still correcting and nitpicking shooters stance after two weeks of shooting even though the Students are consistantly hiting the kill zone. If they are shooting accurately and have a secure and balanced stance after the first week we leave their stance as it is. It is their natural stance. I always notice that instructors who can only correct stance with students after a week of Combat Marksmanship is a sign of a instructor who has little experience in teaching combat marksmanship.

[NousDefionsDoc]

It speaks! And well....