Wuhan Coronavirus

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pete

I would think it's a rigged study with an outcome fixed before it's finished.

As far as I read it's only HCQ.

Everything I've read said it works best along with Zinc and Zpacs.

Any reason why the study dropped the other two?

A lot of time tin foil hat stuff is based on good reasons.

Don't know, I'm not involved. HCQ is also used alone clinically but I agree that small open label studies have shown greater decreases in viral load in nasal swabs when HCQ and azithromycin are used together. Haven't searched lately for the effect of HCQ/Zpac/zinc on treatment outcome hint hint.

But nasal swabs are notoriously inaccurate. I hate to keep bringing up anecdotal stuff but my daughter tested neg twice, once with a falling O2 saturation, before her supervising doc ordered her into the hospital where she finally tested + on PCR.

"Confounding variables" are the bane of clinical research and if adverse events are noted, sorting it out with multiple agents is a nightmare.

I held my nose and voted Trump and I'll hold my nose and vote for him again. That said I'll now criticize his approach to all of this stuff.

Fauci is doing his job and giving his opinion but Trump doesn't have to obey him. Trump has the CDC, NIH, USAMRIID, Lawrence Livermore, a slew of lawyers, a vengeful spirit, and the Defense Production Act in his pocket. There's nothing holding him back from commandeering these research operations and directing them to perform studies in the national interest. Add about 10 Big Pharma operations to that mix who have clinical teams, biostatisticians, databases, experience, and infrastructure already in place.

Use them--It's not all about masks and gloves. It's a bit risky, because one of our cultural strengths is the person staring off into the distance and wondering "what if?" but when we're flying blind sometimes we need answers.

This is an informed guess but I think HCQ's role is in prophylaxis and not treatment, i.e. preventing the disease and not treating it. That would be a game-changer.

Treatment emphasis is moving to inhaled nitric oxide and immune enhancement. NO worked better than HCQ during the SARS epidemic.

See this:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/86410

[Pete]

Originally Posted by mugwump

...Fauci is doing his job and giving his opinion but Trump doesn't have to obey him. ..

Trump listened to him at the start and still listens to him some even today.

Fauci has shown himself to be a believer in failed models and in the pocket of big pharma.

Just my opinion of course.

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pete

The question now is "Would a Governor of a state try and hide antigen test results if it didn't support his agenda?"

Just might be the case in IL.

"Just as highly important information on antibody testing has started to come in, Governor JB Pritzker announced Friday that he will de-prioritize that testing. He is withholding results collected so far in Illinois. His full comments are reproduced below...."

https://wirepoints.org/pritzker-now-...Eycx2hrPytwhE0

Wonder if it's true?

I'd bet on it! Real numbers are probably 50 x higher than official stats which drops CFR dramatically

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pete

This has been hinted at here and there during the past number of weeks.

The people who did this mention it with strong cautions but there does seem to be a correlation between Covid symptoms and Vit D.

"Vitamin D levels may impact COVID-19 mortality rates, study claims"

https://www.foxnews.com/science/vita...ortality-rates

"A research team led by Northwestern University analyzed data from hospitals and clinics across China, France, Germany, Italy, Iran, South Korea, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

Patients from countries with high COVID-19 mortality rates, such as Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom, had lower levels of vitamin D compared to patients in countries that were not as severely affected, according to the study......."

and

"..."While I think it is important for people to know that vitamin D deficiency might play a role in mortality, we don't need to push vitamin D on everybody," said Northwestern's Vadim Backman, who led the research, in a statement. "This needs further study, and I hope our work will stimulate interest in this area. The data also may illuminate the mechanism of mortality, which, if proven, could lead to new therapeutic targets.".."

Two thumbs up. Sitting in the sun (much greater Vitamin D production than pills) is best benefit/risk activity there is.

Black/brown people have chronically low VitD levels because they produce much less at northern lattitudes and they are dying at disproportionate rates. Before attaching this to income disparity as the left is doing a medical reason should be investigated.

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pete

Trump listened to him at the start and still listens to him some even today.

Fauci has shown himself to be a believer in failed models and in the pocket of big pharma.

Just my opinion of course.

Well the failed model part is indisputable for this first wave, at least. I still worry about the path of the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic and the fall (mild first wave, hellacious second wave, moderate third wave).

If we extend the Bronx/Queens serology study to the whole nation (and given the lesser density outside NY I think that's a bit of a stretch) that still leaves 80% of the nation susceptible in the fall.

That's an argument for opening the economy and stacking cheese while we can IMO, not for staying home and continuing isolation.

[Old Dog New Trick]

The President (any President) has a contractual as well as moral and fiscal obligation to serve over 330,000,000 people in America and those around the world. It’s his (any President) responsibility to keep the engine lubed and turning over again and again.

Sometimes something breaks and has to be fixed. Good “Presidents” surround themselves with good and likeminded folks that actually know how to fix the problems. I think he’s done that or tried to do that even when some of those folks have had an ulterior motive to undermine him (this President more so than any President before him.)

It’s his number one job to help Americans be fully productive and employed to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes that leaves some others with less than a satisfactory experience.

JMO-YMMV

I too held my nose but this time around I am happy to be a Trump supporter and vote for him again.

ETA: it doesn’t help to have nearly 98% of the media openly destroying and making up shit to hurt him at the expense of the country!

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by mugwump

That's an argument for opening the economy and stacking cheese while we can IMO, not for staying home and continuing isolation.

Funny you should mention that. Cheese is, and will continue to be available, as will butter, ice cream and (almost) all other dairy. But things need to be running again for awhile to allow the fluid milk to be utilized (schools, restaurants) rather than tossed because milk plants don't flip on a dime to start producing some other form of dairy. But them cows gon' produce, and get milked, regardless - what's able to be done with the output is important. And that's only one very tiny piece of the engine.

[Pete]

It would appear that "Follow the Money" still applies.

Full Measure with Sharyl Attkisson - Hydroxychloroquine and Remdesivir

"Sharyl Attkisson's latest Full Measure episode reports on politics, money, and medicine colliding with the COVID-19 crisis.

Attkisson interviews three accomplished medical experts who are calling for the politicization of COVID-19 to come to a screeching halt because it is dangerous, scaring patients, and costing lives and the financial conflicts of interests must be further examined.

They also note that the media is not helping the situation......"

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by Pete

They also note that the media is not helping the situation......"

More like exacerbating it. Yet the sheeple still follow.

[Pete]

Well, this is interesting.

So just what are the real numbers?

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-texas/611935/

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is conflating the results of two different types of coronavirus tests, distorting several important metrics and providing the country with an inaccurate picture of the state of the pandemic. We’ve learned that the CDC is making, at best, a debilitating mistake: combining test results that diagnose current coronavirus infections with test results that measure whether someone has ever had the virus. ........"

"Have" and "Had" total might be nice to know when this is over - but I'm pretty sure all the lock down panic is over who has it "Now".

[Box]

I've said it elsewhere... this will all go away as soon as President Trump leaves office.

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Pete

Well, this is interesting.

So just what are the real numbers?

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "

Georgia is combining results

https://www.11alive.com/article/news...f-c22a1ca65ab2

Unless there is a magic USA Master database with separate & unique elements for recording each different test results and space for future tests that aren't invented yet..



Have you seen the latest test??

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Pete

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "

I regard that question in the article from the Professor at "Hah-verd" as rhetorical.
I mean, damn, it's the CDC; that's how.
Next thing you know they'll say that the virus isn't as viable on surfaces as they originally told everyone.
Oh, wait...


I'm beginning to think that all the media, right down to the 5:00 and 10:00 pm local news broadcasts in Smalltown, USA, are common-core kiddies. They can't seem to do the math to arrive at the actual Current Number of Active Cases in their area. The sure do like that Total Cases Ever number, though. I know that my county health services director as well as the adjacent one have been told to make their numbers comply in formatting with what the state wants to see; and clarity is lost from there on up. Freakin' HHQ are the same everywhere it seems. Now that V Corps is standing up again they could qualify.


This stuff is bad for the digestion; better to contemplate the heirlooms growin' like weeds out on the front deck. Some toast, some bacon...

[Trapper John]

Regarding the response to the corona virus pandemic, I contend that we have been profoundly misled by the “Experts”! Yep, that’s right I said it…The “Experts” have been wrong!

SARSCoV-2 is a highly transmissible virus that can lead to a fatal disease - COVID-19. We have no vaccine nor do we have an effective treatment.

The models told us that We were facing collapse of our healthcare infrastructure and nearly 1.2 million fatalities if we don’t do something and do it quickly!

Yikes!!! What do we do? What DO we do?

We turn to the public health experts of course. The “Experts” delved into their experiential “bag of tricks” to tell us to stay away from one another, and don’t congregate because this virus needs to be transmitted person-to person in order to survive. And of course we need to test, test, test, and test again so we can see if cases are increasing, staying, the same or declining. In short the “expert” advice is to interrupt human to human transmission and let COVID-19 run it’s course. To the public health “Experts” credit, the disease has been mitigated and our healthcare system has not been overwhelmed as predicted.

Frankly, I don't believe that the predicted dire consequences would have happened regardless. But then I am no "Expert"

But did these “experts” miss anything?

Well, yes they did! See: “Effects of chloroquine on viral infections: an old drug against today’s diseases”. Lancet 3(11) 722-727 1 Nov. 2013. As an entrepreneur and a medical research scientist, I read this and saw a mechanism of action for an old drug that would justify its widespread use as a possible (likely) prophylactic agent in this COVID-19 pandemic. This illustrates why, when faced with a new and novel problem the best advice does not necessarily come from the “Experts”. I am no public health expert, but had I been asked, I would have recommended using the public in a large scale blinded and randomized prospective clinical trial to compare infection rates in (i) a placebo group vs (ii) a chloroquine treated group. I think this would have established prophylactic efficacy for chloroquine very early on and we could have avoided the economic shut-down all together.

In about six-weeks we should have results from a prospective study that is being conducted at the University of Wisconsin so we’ll see.

The problem with reliance upon "expert" opinions in novel and unique problems is that “experts” will by definition first apply historical analogies to the problem. For truly novel or unique problems those analogies will not fit and the “Expert” mindset does not seek out novel or apparently un-related observations to apply to the problem. Unfortunately, that is Exactly what is required in the current pandemic problem!

Now we are the unwitting subjects of a different experiment. But that's a subject for a different discussion.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

Regarding the response to the corona virus pandemic, I contend that we have been profoundly misled by the “Experts”! Yep, that’s right I said it…The “Experts” have been wrong!

SARSCoV-2 is a highly transmissible virus that can lead to a fatal disease - COVID-19. We have no vaccine nor do we have an effective treatment.

The models told us that We were facing collapse of our healthcare infrastructure and nearly 1.2 million fatalities if we don’t do something and do it quickly!

Yikes!!! What do we do? What DO we do?

We turn to the public health experts of course. The “Experts” delved into their experiential “bag of tricks” to tell us to stay away from one another, and don’t congregate because this virus needs to be transmitted person-to person in order to survive. And of course we need to test, test, test, and test again so we can see if cases are increasing, staying, the same or declining. In short the “expert” advice is to interrupt human to human transmission and let COVID-19 run it’s course. To the public health “Experts” credit, the disease has been mitigated and our healthcare system has not been overwhelmed as predicted.

Frankly, I don't believe that the predicted dire consequences would have happened regardless. But then I am no "Expert"

But did these “experts” miss anything?

Well, yes they did!

Snip

Now we are the unwitting subjects of a different experiment. But that's a subject for a different discussion.

TJ, I’ll defer to your level of non-expert over my level of non-expert-ness and contend that the only thing novel (new) about this virus (aside from its enhanced protein spikes) is the level at which our appointed leaders have gone to destroy the country and the world to a achieve their desired goals.

A species is only as strong as its weakest link. Those above that link will undoubtedly survive and become stronger, those below that link are destined for other outcomes to include deformities or death.

JMO
Stay Frosty!