"Leave No Teacher Standing"

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by D9
Agreed on all points. I'd like to bring up one other thing about "socialization," which is a favorite topic of those who bash home-schoolers. What do people even mean by it? I can never get a straight answer out of anyone.

Most people speak as if by that they mean that not sending a child to public school dooms the child to the life of a withdrawn, socially dysfunctional, misfit. This is baseless hyperbole.

Asked to define what they mean by socialization, most refer vaguely to qualities like the ability to compromise or function well as part of a group. But these are qualities that weren't lacking in Americans before the public school era, when many children were raised at home. Furthermore, homeschooling cannot be equated with complete isolation from peers (as its detractors usually insinuate). Most home-schooled children have plenty of friends and siblings, and I am not aware of any study that convincingly argues that public school kids have a decisive social advantage.

I think the "socialization" argument associated with public schools owes to John Dewey, the famous pragmatist and education philosopher, who saw a public school system as a way for America to engineer a society that could compete with what he was sure was going to be a great utopian engineering project in the USSR. Dewey held explicitly that choice had to be taken away from children about their futures, and that they had to be directed in a course that was best for society. If society needs carpenters, then schools train carpenters. If society needs electricians, then schools must be able to respond to this. It was the beginning on the de-emphasis of the individual in education, and the emphasis on the social value (i.e. the value that would redound to "society" from the child's education). At the time, it was argued that kids needed to learn "social" skills so they would be compliant with this social engineering scheme. The term "socialization," as it was born in that era in education, meant the indoctrination of children to dogmatically take the good of society as expressed by school administrators over their own dreams in their education. These are the "social" values that were originally supposed to emerge in public schools.

But that was during America's Red Decades, and the folly in the subjugation of the individual to the collective has been made clear in the death camps of the Nazis and Soviets. So, today, "socialization" is a term that in my opinion has no real meaning. It has disassociated itself from its Marxist roots, but is left with nothing to refer to. IMO, it is an abstraction without a connection to reality. Those who refer to it, do so not in reference to an actual deficiency in social skills that can be observed in non-public school children (be they home or private schooled), but mean it to invoke images of socially incompetent misfits. The fact is, I don't think there is any reason to give credence to such a connection. Of the home and private school kids I know, they are without exception well adjusted.

As for the kids with the neo-Nazi parents, I doubt public schools could do much for kids like that anyway.

Not trying to offend, just my 0.02.

BTW, my source on the Dewey info is Left Back, by Diane Ravitch. She is a Columbia Teacher's College professor, and author.

Marxist?

I did not express an opinion one way or the other. The point is simply that going to school with other children exposes the kid to other children and forces the child to learn how to interact with others. Not that you can't accomplish that if you are home schooling, but it is something you need to compensate for.

[D9 (RIP)]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Marxist?

Not referring to you. In fact, I didn't even see where you posted what you refer to above. I saw Mr. Harsey's comments and was prompted by those. No offense intended.

Dewey thought Marx style social engineering was good, and advocated for "socializing" children on this model. Just pointing out the history of the term.

Seriously, I don't think kids suffer from any kind of social retardation from home-schooling. Without obviously lacking social skills in home-school children, I find it hard to understand what people are referring to by "socialization."

I agree that kids need to learn how to interact with others. I do not think public schools have a monopoly on this (if they're any better at all).

[Roguish Lawyer]

I think students would learn valuable lessons at this rally:

[Roguish Lawyer]

One more pic:

Originally posted by D9

Seriously, I don't think kids suffer from any kind of social retardation from home-schooling. Without obviously lacking social skills in home-school children, I find it hard to understand what people are referring to by "socialization."

As I said earlier most people I know who home school make it a point to get their kids involved in activities outside the house.....that is, I believe, what people are saying...that you have to make a point not to isolate the child who is home schooled when those that attend either public/private schools see and interact with other children on a daily basis.



doc t.

[Sacamuelas]

by Attending private school in Britain boy

A very good point... I'm not seeing any incoming fire right now, though.. Just praying for that air support, or I'll have to exfiltrate on my lonesome if the fire gets to heavy

Sorry for the delay Sir...
Some of us are out of high school and unfortunately have jobs to interfere with this important debate. I will reply asap young grasshopper. During the pause, would you mind explaining a little more for me. I want to make sure I understand your positions. That was an impressive post and I want to make sure I get it all right.. the full .02 as we say.

"I think that it is important for students to experience rallies first-hand through attendance, but NOT be forced into participating in the rally proper."

You are referring to high school kids during school hours on a school sponsored field trips right?

"While attending a rally- being physically present among the body of protesters- could be seen as implicit support of the rally, I believe that participating takes more.."

How is the success of a rally judged?

"While schools should attempt to expose students to rallys by allowing them to attend (or going on class trips), it would be wrong to make them participate in the rally."

What happens to the students who decide not to go?

"intermediary bureaucracy, which often has the effect of perverting or co-opting the message"

Do you feel most anti-war rallies are organized and attended by nonbiased citizens looking for enlightenment on the issue?

"The unalienable right of Free Speech is upheld through protest and rally, and these two devices could be seen as mechanisms to prevent tyranny or governmental behaviour which is felt to be unrepresentative of popular opinion. Therefore, excluding individual messages, rallies are a good thing."

How do you feel the 1st amendment plays into this specific issue?

"As such, I feel that students should be given, quite literally, an 'introduction' to protest, a field trip of some kind."

Please give me your idea of a good "intro" rally that you would approve of and why.

and my favorite....
"Of course, some people think students shouldn't have a voice at all..."
What specifically do you think high school students should have a voice in? I support you, I am just wondering what you might be talking about…is attending rallies the voice you refer to?

I know I asked a lot of you, please respond as you have time. I will get back to this thread. Thanks Solid.

[D9 (RIP)]

Originally posted by Doc T
As I said earlier most people I know who home school make it a point to get their kids involved in activities outside the house.....that is, I believe, what people are saying...that you have to make a point not to isolate the child who is home schooled when those that attend either public/private schools see and interact with other children on a daily basis.

Agreed, ma'am. Clarification noted.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Wire broke, smoke coming from fuse igniter.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Yup, "Let us have your kids, we know what's best for them."

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews...3_20040303.htm

Michigan teacher must cover cost of substitute while on military duty
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GRAND RAPIDS -- A Michigan school district told a teacher activated for military duty that he must cover the cost of a substitute during part of his absence and give the district some of his military pay.

At a school board meeting this week, angry teachers, students and district residents criticized the decision by administrators at Kenowa Hills Public Schools.

"Is this how you treat people that defend your country?" Tom Lovett, a teacher's spouse and district resident, asked board members.

Barry Bernhardt, a middle school science teacher and a National Guard reservist for at least a decade, started serving two weeks of active duty in Italy on Monday, the day of the school board meeting.

During the 10 days Bernhardt will be gone from the classroom, he will use two personal days and two compensation days during his time off.

For the remaining six days, Bernhardt must pay the district $74 per day for the substitute teacher filling in for him and turn over the $78 in salary that he will receive each day from the National Guard, The Grand Rapids Press reported.

"The district missed a golden opportunity to reflect on the patriotic duty of all Americans to, in our own way, celebrate the accomplishments of the service not only of Barry, but of all the men and women who stand for our country," said Ron La Fave, a Kenowa Hills teacher.

Superintendent Jim Gillette said the district was following the law when it crafted its agreement with Bernhardt. A similar agreement was drawn up on one other occasion, years earlier, when Bernhardt was assigned to Bosnia during a tour of duty.

In most previous years, Bernhardt has fulfilled his military assignments while on vacation, Gillette said.

"It's inaccurate to say we didn't do anything for him. We did provide significant assistance," the superintendent said, adding that the district continues to provide Bernhardt with all his other benefits during his absence.

In the end, the teacher will receive $573 more than he would have after the two-week military leave, Gillette said. Bernhardt will give the district only six days' worth of his military pay, and he also will receive a military housing allowance.

When compared to employees of private companies, the district is doing what it should to protect Bernhardt's financial stability, Gillette said.

"It's a fact that he's not losing money, that he's making money. Whatever way you look at it, he's still making money," he said.

In neighboring Grand Rapids Public Schools, teachers called to duty receive two weeks of unpaid leave but are not required to pay for a substitute teacher.

As a result of Bernhardt's situation, Kenowa Hills school board members now are likely to create a specific policy covering employee military leave.

"In the future, he's not going to get out that well," Gillette said.

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Wire broke, smoke coming from fuse igniter.

Haha... Team Sergeant hasn't given me firing priviledges. He only lets me keep one bullet in my gun like Barney Fife. LOL I don't feel comfortable being critical or sharpshooting...not my style. LOL

I may agree with solid. He might have convinced me completely. That part where he completely perverted Mr. Harsey's words really touched me.

I may have experienced enlightenment for the first time. If only I had attended anti-war and pro-same sex marriage rallies back when I was going through high school. Dammit. I should have recieved credit for that instead of learning about our constitution and founding father's in that perverted or co-opted messages being taught by that beurocratic history teacher.

After all, Jane Fonda didn't really do anything wrong in Nam'... She was just ATTENDING those prisoner of war camps while they were beaten and tortured....she wasn't PARTICIPATING. It is a BIG difference - just ask SOLID. He can explain it.

[Solid]

by Attending private school in Britain boy

I think it is necessary for me to fully explain my background, and why I still feel that my argument and experience is somewhat relevant to the discussion. I am, without a doubt, an American citizen. For many years I attended a private American Highschool in London. However, I have for the past two years been studying at a British remedial school. I feel that at my current school I am exposed to a wide range of students from different socioeconomic, ethnic, and political backgrounds. Furthermore, I am aware of the build and stance of a 'typical' US highschool, because my old school was constructed around that model. I therefore feel that while I would prefer to have been educated at a US public school in order to more confidently comment on this issue, my background still provides me with a comparable understanding of education. If this is demonstrably not the case, I will retract my argument and unass the AO.


You are referring to high school kids during school hours on a school sponsored field trips right?
Very sparingly, yes. I would not support 'regular class trips', just enough to establish a working concept of a rally, similar to a class trip to view a painting at a gallery.

How is the success of a rally judged?
The effect it has on the desired target, usually measured imperically- legislation, polls etc.

What happens to the students who decide not to go?
As with any field trip, students will be allowed not to attend if their parents write them a note.

Do you feel most anti-war rallies are organized and attended by nonbiased citizens looking for enlightenment on the issue?
I'm not sure how this related to the quote, but no, most certainly not. Anti-war rallies are organized and attended by those that are anti-war or anything surrounding the issue (military, for example). To clarify, the "intermediary bureaucracy" I was referring to was the system of representation that allows people to vote, etc.

How do you feel the 1st amendment plays into this specific issue?
The right of Freedom of Expression is (partially) what allows rallies to take place, and as such is integral to the issue.

Please give me your idea of a good "intro" rally that you would approve of and why.
Rallies against legislation which is not highly controversial tend to be peaceful, and could make good 'intro' rallies. Bad 'intro' rallies would be those like anti-WTO and anti-OIF rallies, or Affirmative Action rallies. Generally, controversial issue-based rallies should be stayed away from as they often escalate into violence.

What specifically do you think high school students should have a voice in? I support you, I am just wondering what you might be talking about…is attending rallies the voice you refer to?
Highschool students, including myself, are altogether too opinionated and ignorant of reality. As such, the voice of these students is often misguided, petulant, and unsubstantiated. Nevertheless, I believe that they should have the right to express their opinions, as long as the majority of opinions are expressed politely through the "proper channels". Part of the 'protesting' syllabus would, in my eyes, address the primary stages of protest, which involve operating through the "proper channels". I do not believe that students should be taught to protest without being taught the stages of protest first. Therefore, in the right circumstances (hopefully so specific that they never occur), students may express their voice through rally. In most other cases, however, the student voice will be limited to polite and dignified conduct through the appropriate bureaucractic channels.

As for Hanoi Jane, she was quoted by the press ("no, really, they're being treated humanely down here"etc) and therefore participated and didn't just attend. You should've attended pro-war rallies with your history teacher, none of that liberal BS...

I hope that answered your questions. As NDD said, I tripped the wire while wandering blindly into this potential quagmire. I'm here now, so I figure that I'll set up a perimeter and catch some Z's while OPFOR prepares its attack.

Good night,

Solid

PS: I notice I'm no longer a 'sir'... it was good to be respected while it lasted, lol.
PPS: I don't know what's more suspensful, the comments NDD keeps making, or the fact that he's bothering to comment after each of my posts!

[NousDefionsDoc]

Point man disappears, "Was that a selector switch I just heard click?"

[NousDefionsDoc]

I know this town, played football against them. Tiny, tiny town.

Feb. 20, 2004, 4:55PM

Student arrested for taking Game Boy bomb to school
By S.K. BARDWELL
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

A Livingston Junior High School student is in police custody today, after fellow students called Crime Stoppers to report he had a homemade bomb at school Thursday.

The student, whose name is not being released because of his age, hollowed out a Game Boy and filled it with gunpowder, Livingston police said.

But when the student bragged about his invention, another student called Crime Stoppers to report the device, police said.

The Polk County school was evacuated briefly Thursday afternoon while officials searched for the student and the bomb. He was arrested on a school bus headed to a track meet, and the bomb was rendered harmless.

Police said the boy could be charged with carrying a prohibited weapon into a school zone, a second degree felony.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Police said the boy could be charged with carrying a prohibited weapon into a school zone, a second degree felony.

That's all?

I don't know if this thing he made was dangerous or not, but if it really was a bomb, I'd think the punishment should be pretty severe.

[Sacamuelas]

"Highschool students, including myself, are altogether too opinionated and ignorant of reality. As such, the voice of these students is often misguided, petulant, and unsubstantiated.

Exactly. I will explain the truth in your own words to you in a little bit. Hopefully, someone else can help you while I am gone.

Again, I only get one bullet and it would be a waste on Solid after he already shot himself in the groin with the above quote.

NDD- quit provoking me. You are going to get the TS mad at me... I will not fire until I see the white's of his eyes. Of course, if someone else wants to provide support then TS couldn't say it was me being the troublemaker.