Civil Unrest Continues to Build Around Eastern Oregon Rancher Case

[ddoering]

I'll feel better wrt action when the Feds start shooting BLM and OWS terrorists as well.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by wpd654

The made it clear they were armed and were willing to play tennis with bullets, so the feds chose the lives of people over property and let them have their stage.

Not to put too fine a point on it but in the criminal complaint (FBI affidavit, para 23) the information to the FBI as to the group's alleged "intentions" came from a 3rd party source to a 3rd party source - on the first day & the story told by this "source" certainly inflamed things on the .gov side from the jump. Police work.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by wpd654

I don't think the feds were looking for a gun fight. The team appeared well prepared for contingencies. After the chase, crash and the confrontation with Finicum you can see flashes near the truck which look like flashbangs or less lethal munitions to me. I also know that flashbangs that land in snow are practically useless.

I think it's too soon to say that the truck was shot up with lethal rounds and not some other type of munitions. The feds had some time to plan this. Breaching windows with beanbags to introduce chemical is not unheard of. Bundy's injuries were described as a minor gunshot.

No, I don't think they were compliant, but Bundy obviously decided it was in his best interest to get out of the car and comply after the chase. The crash was violent enough to cause injury alone. Stop Sticks would have been nice.

The authorities had a tough task in this case no doubt. I am sure there will be more to come. I have never seen the feds release video this soon. I find that encouraging.

If you poke a bear with a stick to get it into a cage, be prepared for it to turn and lash out. On the other hand, if you bait the trap with honey it may take longer but, the bear will trap itself.

The police be they local, state or Feds, had nothing but time on their side. If they set the trap (the meeting place) they messed up. They didn't contain and control the situation very well and it got away from them in a bad way. The outcome was either planned or expected.

They chose to poke the bear. Now they have created a whole new set of problems going forward and conspiracy theories from their rather overbearing use of force.

While the video is without audio it does tend to support the 18-y/o females' account of the events from the first stop to the final stop. Right now the police are not controlling the story...in fact it's dropped off the media a day after. They need to support their arguments with audio from the scene and on the ground and supporting statements from officials on the ground. Not some pre-chosen briefing points from the agent in charge.

This is how a conspiracy starts!

[twistedsquid]

A classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by wpd654

I don't think the feds were looking for a gun fight. The team appeared well prepared for contingencies. After the chase, crash and the confrontation with Finicum you can see flashes near the truck which look like flashbangs or less lethal munitions to me. I also know that flashbangs that land in snow are practically useless.

I think it's too soon to say that the truck was shot up with lethal rounds and not some other type of munitions. The feds had some time to plan this. Breaching windows with beanbags to introduce chemical is not unheard of. Bundy's injuries were described as a minor gunshot.

No, I don't think they were compliant, but Bundy obviously decided it was in his best interest to get out of the car and comply after the chase. The crash was violent enough to cause injury alone. Stop Sticks would have been nice.

The authorities had a tough task in this case no doubt. I am sure there will be more to come. I have never seen the feds release video this soon. I find that encouraging.

Are you fucking kidding? Armored vehicles, road blocks, bulletproof shields? Weren't looking for a fight?

They fucking instigated it! How would the military have handled this? How would Andy Griffith have handled it? Which did they do?

Stop being an apologist for our out of control federal gubmint! These "rancher" ass clowns are douche nozzles, but that doesn't give the Feds a lisence for murder!

[tonyz]

If the ROE governing this domestic (totally civilian) incident and our ROE in Afghanistan (and other recent US military conflicts) were compared and contrasted what would that comparison look like?

No politics - just comparing and contrasting current civilian versus military ROE - I assume that ultimate policy is generally set by the same political leadership and that makes this analysis somewhat interesting.

The video footage makes this reasonably possible - although certainly not complete.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I'm not sure who is dumber. The idiot protesters that the locals and even the two people they started to protest about or the feds for reacting like they are and giving them what they want. ATTETION. If I worked in the occupied office I would go to work every day like normal and ignore the idiots in the office. I would sit at my desk and drink coffee like they were not there. Shooting this idiot espically on the way to a public speaking engaugement is just what these dip shots wanted.

Exactly.
The protesters were using the push-pull manipulation technique.

Interact and end up backing down, the protesters declare victory and more of the same is encouraged.
Interact and escalate to violence, the protesters "prove" their case of an oppressive government, and even worse behavior will follow.

Contain, isolate, and ignore; the minor mess (including potential prosecutions) can be addressed later.
The government's job with its own people us to keep the peace, not prove who is in charge.

[GratefulCitizen]

Seems like the sheriff had won their respect.
Wonder what would've happened had the sheriff been given more time.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...ping/79532862/

[CSB]

It's obvious that when the white truck made an effort to go around the roadblock to the left, intentionally or not, it skidded into a law enforcement officer who was unmasking himself directly into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

Again, we need the audio, but I would predict some shouted "officer down!" or "I've been hit" to echo throughout the area.

Then Mr. F ("F" as in "fucked") got out of the vehicle, hands clearly in the air.

He walks toward the rear of his car, when, out of the wood line, a second law enforcement officer appears behind him. (What was he doing out there? Off taking a piss waiting for the roadblock to go down? Setting up a sniper overwatch?).

Anyway, Mr. F is apparently hearing two loud voices shouting at him from about 160 degrees apart. One who walked out from the roadblock, and the other emerging from the tree line.

Mr. F seems confused, and I suspect that the audio will show the officers are yelling "Hands up" and/or "Get down" because Mr. F doesn't seem to know whether to face one, face the other, put hands up, get down, "show me your hands" "put your hands up."

He turns, puts his hands up, then his hands down, then Mr. "I'm here in the woods" shoots him.

Obviously law enforcement has no idea whether anybody in the truck is drawing a bead on them from inside, or if the occupants are about ready to do a mass unass with multiple 12 gauge shotguns filling the AO with 00 buckshot, etc.

Mr. F put himself in a bad situation, and while we can parse it in slow motion for the next 20 years, the result was about as expected.

[Gold Eagle]

I have a quote here from another site in relation to the full FBI video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ

Wanted to get a QP's opinion please.

" There is an oddity starting at around 11:10. There is an agent in a black top who comes from the front of the roadblock, around to the left side of the screen, and comes to stand behind the agents who are sheltering behind the rear roadblock vehicle, weapons trained on Finicum’s truck. . He appears to be gesturing at the aircraft to back away. In response to this, at 11:40, the screen jumps back to a longer distance shot of the roadblock. What are the agents doing at this time? Why does he gesture the aircraft to back off? At 11:47 the aircraft is further on the circuit and the shot zooms in again. The man in the black top appears to be waving again and perhaps coordinating the agents, a couple of who are steeping out round the back of the vehicles to aim/engage Finicum’s truck. At 12;09 as you are able to see through the gap in the trees, you can see either lethal or non-lethal impacts into or behind the windshield. Did he want to video to back off so they could open fire? "

[DJ Urbanovsky]

Bullets impacting windshield right at 12.19.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by DJ Urbanovsky

Bullets impacting windshield right at 12.19.

I saw that too; some wrote that off as windshield glint as the angle changes. Look like impacts in laminated safety glass to me. There had been an impact to the windshield prior to the ditch at any rate, to my eye.

[Bleed Green]

I read an interview given by Mrs. Cox where she said that there were pepper sponges that were shot inside the truck which made me wonder if that was not from a PLS. Just food for thought.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

Windshield glint? You mean like when bullets are punching holes in it?

Originally Posted by Badger52

I saw that too; some wrote that off as windshield glint as the angle changes. Look like impacts in laminated safety glass to me. There had been an impact to the windshield prior to the ditch at any rate, to my eye.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by DJ Urbanovsky

Windshield glint? You mean like when bullets are punching holes in it?

Some had postulated that it was just coincidental change in the "lighting" as the airborne camera moved about the location.