Nelson Mandela dies

[JHD]

Originally Posted by PRB

I give the man great credit for his actions post incarceration......someone who finds compassion for his jailers is way beyond my abilities or comprehension.
He averted what could have been a terrible civil war after the elections.

Agreed.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by JHD

Agreed.

For 16 mil Rand, many could show compassion.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by PRB

I give the man great credit for his actions post incarceration......someone who finds compassion for his jailers is way beyond my abilities or comprehension.
He averted what could have been a terrible civil war after the elections.

Perhaps the reason for his good attitude after incarceration has something to do with how well he was treated in prison. To have lived to 95 is a good indication that he was not abused in any way and his medical treatment was of the highest caliber.
Remember that he was a lawyer and was well aware that he should have been hanged for the crimes he was found guilty of. This would undoubtedly contributed to his appreciation of his captors.
He averted a civil war because he also knew that the whites were in a position to wipe out the entire black population had they so wished. The police and the military were firmly controlled by the whites, so if you want to dish out credit for avoiding civil war, you should look to the whites who voted , overwhelmingly, to bring blacks into parliament instead of wiping them out as many of our critics did to their native populations.

[JHD]

Originally Posted by Dusty

For 16 mil Rand, many could show compassion.

Just to be clear, I am not expressing compassion. I don't condone his prior actions, and I don't really mourn his loss. Things could have been so much worse.

Appreciate your perspective, GuyMullins.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by JHD

Just to be clear, I am not expressing compassion.

To be equally clear, it's not your compassion to which I referred.

[JHD]

Originally Posted by Dusty

To be equally clear, it's not your compassion to which I referred.

Noted.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

.
Remember that he was a lawyer and was well aware that he should have been hanged for the crimes he was found guilty of. This would undoubtedly contributed to his appreciation of his captors.

Libiocy isn't restricted to the worldview of Mandela/SA. America elected a president whose bio "Dreams From my Father" was authored by a domestic terrorist who bombed a police station.

[Pete]

For Mandela, Reverence, but Criticism, Too

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/07/wo...nted=1&_r=0&hp

"JOHANNESBURG — Nelson Mandela was deeply respected in his homeland, and almost worshiped by many for his definitive role in ending white rule and installing multiracial democracy....."

An interesting read. Somewhat goes along with my point that he kept the lid from blowing off in SA. A lot of the criticism in the story is about him not going far enough after ending white rule.

I see an increase in the slide to becoming Zimbabwe South.

[Snaquebite]

From another forum,

I am a South African who was in South Africa during the 80's. I served in the military for a short while, and then the South African Police. The Mandela issue is more nuanced than people realise. I agree that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but these platitudes always require closer examination. You can't simply have an ideology and expect to get your way if you use violent means. But if your ideology represents the wishes of the majority, then it stands to reason that methods will turn violent if the oppressor refuses to negotiate. Now, having said that, it would be easy to assert that Mandela was justified in using force. But you also need to consider the global political climate at the time, and the history of South Africa. The global political climate at the time revolved around the struggle between the West and Communism. South Africa was waging a proxy war, on behalf of the US, against Russians, Cubans and East Germans in Angola. The war for Africa had nothing to do with Apartheid, but everything to do with global domination by the communists. The ANC was receiving support and training from the East. There was absolutely no way the SA Government was going to negotiate a political hand over in the face of such an onslaught, and given the ANC Marxist ideology. omebody made the comment that the "oppression" of black South Africans was so bad that it may have justified a violent uprising. That is not true. It is widely acknowledged that education, medical, life expectancies, crime etc, were far better under Apartheid. However, you need to understand the progress towards a fully representative democratic state was never going to be rapid, given the state of the onslaught. Moreover, the modern South African state was built by settlers, for settlers, in a hostile environment. This is similar to what happened in the US. Over time the settlers prospered and black South Africans felt excluded. Around the 1800's the English got involved, fighting two Boer Wars, and eventually oppressing the Dutch population terribly, through the use of concentration camps, scorched earth policies and denial of employment. The white Dutch population became severely impoverished, but they had a vote. In 1948 the Dutch representative won the General Election, and the National Party came to power. Their mandate was to ensure that the Dutch people would never be oppressed like that again. This lead to Apartheid. So it never started out as a Black/White thing. So what then about Mandela? The hero worship that he enjoys is completely overblown and out of context. With the collapse of Communism, Apartheid was going to go anyway, and was already being dismantled. But the new narrative sees Mandela as being victorious over white supremacists. This is so far from the truth, that it is disturbing. The ANC came to power through a negotiated settlement. Mandela was a hopeless President, who naively held onto Marxist beliefs. His successors, Mbeki and Zuma were/are a disaster, and South Africa is in rapid decline. The white minority, a mere 8% of the population, are subjected to abuses that far exceed anything ever experienced under Apartheid. It's become a tyranny of the majority, with no end in sight. South Africa is experiencing the largest migration of skills and capital, outside of a war zone. More than 1.5 million skilled people have already left. Commercial white farmers have been placed on the Genocide Watch list, given the huge numbers that have been slaughtered. Surely Mandela could not have been blind to all of this? So what lessons can you learn from this? That's for you to decide.If you want to see Mandela's legacy in numbers, let me help you. These numbers come from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Apartheid existed for the period 1948 - 1989 (41 years). The number of recorded deaths was 7,000. Of this number, 550 (13 per year) were as a result of Security Force action. The remainder were black-on-black violence and victims of ANC attacks. For the period 1990 - 1994, which the the period after Mandela was released, and up to the first election. The number of recorded deaths is 14,000, of which 8% (1,120) are attributed to Security Force action. The remainder being mostly black-on-black violence. Ironically, the peace that Mandela advocated never materialised. So when people want to suggest heinous Apartheid attrocities, and therefore subsequent deserved retribution, where are they? And what is the justification for present day murder and rape rates? Compare this to Stalin (23 million), Chairman Mao (78 million), Pol Pot (1.7 million).

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Snaquebite

From another forum,

That is the SA I know....... funny few outside the military have any clue what really goes on in the world around them....... except Congresswoman Maxine Waters, she's a genius........

[Richard]

IMO Nelson Mandela was a man who led many lives during a single lifetime - lawyer, activist, freedom fighter/terrorist, prisoner, president, reconciler, nation builder, visionary, 20th Century icon - depending upon one's point-of-view. History's judgment of him and his actions will undoubtedly remain controversial, a fate which befalls many who have led such impactful lives.

Newt Gingrich posted a statement upon his death and was excoriated for it. I am not a fan of Newt Gingrich, but I have always found him to be thought provoking and his responses to his critics worth pondering.

Yesterday I issued a heartfelt and personal statement about the passing of President Nelson Mandela. I said that his family and his country would be in my prayers and Callista’s prayers.

I was surprised by the hostility and vehemence of some of the people who reacted to me saying a kind word about a unique historic figure.

So let me say to those conservatives who don’t want to honor Nelson Mandela, what would you have done?

Mandela was faced with a vicious apartheid regime that eliminated all rights for blacks and gave them no hope for the future. This was a regime which used secret police, prisons and military force to crush all efforts at seeking freedom by blacks.

What would you have done faced with that crushing government?

What would you do here in America if you had that kind of oppression?

Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.

After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.

As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.

Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?

Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.

Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

Finally, if you had been imprisoned for 27 years, 18 of them in a cell eight foot by seven foot, how do you think you would have emerged? Would you have been angry? Would you have been bitter?

http://hinterlandgazette.com/2013/12...g-british.html

Whatever anyone thinks of Mr Mandela, may he now rest in peace as the debate over the meaning of his life continues.

And so it goes...

Richard

[MR2]

Kudos to Newt and the guy who writes in Green.

[Guymullins]

[QUOTE=Richard;532822]IMO Nelson Mandela was a man who led many lives during a single lifetime - lawyer, activist, freedom fighter/terrorist, prisoner, president, reconciler, nation builder, visionary, 20th Century icon - depending upon one's point-of-view. History's judgment of him and his actions will undoubtedly remain controversial, a fate which befalls many who have led such impactful lives.

Newt Gingrich posted a statement upon his death and was excoriated for it. I am not a fan of Newt Gingrich, but I have always found him to be thought provoking and his responses to his critics worth pondering.

Whatever anyone thinks of Mr Mandela, may he now rest in peace as the debate over the meaning of his life continues.

And so it goes...

When all is said and done. Mandela, with all of his contradictions, is and was by far the best black leader we have had so far. In fact, De Klerks great miscalculation, was to presume that , because of Mandela's qualities, it was time to give the blacks the vote. The truth of the saying,"One swallow does not a summer make" is appropriate in this instance.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Richard

Whatever anyone thinks of Mr Mandela, may he now rest in peace as the debate over the meaning of his life continues.

And so it goes...

Richard

Ptooey.

If a guy kills kids and tortures and burns the heads off people, I don't need to debate over "the meaning of his life", other than to decide whether it calls for a necktie party or firing squad.

Would you middle-of-the-roaders continue to worship MLK if he'd been tossed in prison for that kind of activity?

Wait...don't answer.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Ptooey.

If a guy kills kids and tortures and burns the heads off people, I don't need to debate over "the meaning of his life", other than to decide whether it calls for a necktie party or firing squad.

Would you middle-of-the-roaders continue to worship MLK if he'd been tossed in prison for that kind of activity?

Wait...don't answer.

I don't know enough about Mandela to make a judgement.
Did he ever address his previous actions and publicly repent of them?

There was a guy named Saul of Tarsus who did some bad stuff.
Changed his named to Paul, changed his methods, and had a profound effect on history.

But then again, Paul also expressed some remorse: "...sinners--of whom I am the worst."