Secession - Page 6

**Roguish Lawyer** · 11-14-2012, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

I may be many things, but a "socialist" or an alarmist are not two of them...

Richard

Lib?

Richard · 11-14-2012, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Lib?

Not according to my voter registration and voting record.

Go Devil · 11-14-2012, 10:43

The first failure of this modern secession is the asking of permission.

These collective petitions are a passive protest to keep the angry constituents appeased.

Here's an idea, stop accepting federal aid and stop supporting federal programs.

What is your currency going to be and what is your time frame for implementing the new currency?
Infrastructure?
Power/Petroleum?
Food?
Exports?
International travel?
How about those multiple borders?
Insurgency?

Embargo?

PIPE DREAMS.

This would be a more effective discourse if Reaper were to pose this as one of his scenarios.

How would you implement and maintain the secession of Indiana?

**Box** · 11-14-2012, 16:45

The bad guys in the modern age don't come as wolves anymore...
...its more like the old fable of putting a frog in cool water and turning up the heat until you boil him alive.

The American citizenry is slowly morphing into a creature that is just not equipped to realize how hot the water really is.

...just my two cents. I could be wrong.

CSB · 11-14-2012, 21:32

Can a state secede from the Union?

The short answer is:

No. We settled that at Appomattox.

My sons asked me about that in connection with a school assignment.

And the fact is: Nowhere in the Constitution will you find a provision for secession.

Our founding fathers provided "the finest document ever struck off at one time by the mind of man."

It provides for the formation of the Union.

It provides for the addition of a state from a territory. (like Arizona, or Hawaii).

It provides for the addition of a state from another republic asking to join. (like Texas).

It even provides for the formation of a state by spliting one state into two states. (like Virginia and West Virginia).

But nowhere in the Constitution are there any provisions for secession.
It is obvious that our founding fathers did not feel that joining the Union was revocable, or they would have provided for it in the Constitution.

Think it through.

If secession were to be allowed, there should be a provision for it in the Constitution, perhaps on the order of:

"Any state seeking to remove itself from the Union may make application to the Congress of the United States, by legislation approved by [majority] [2/3][3/4] of the legislature of said state, and signed by the Governor thereof.; or by a referendum of the voters of said state, when passed by a [majority][2/3][3/4] of the state. Whereupon the Congress of the United States, [House][Senate][both] shall take the yeas and nays, and a vote of [majority][2/3][3/4] shall be sufficient to remove said state from membership in the Union."

The fact that the Constitution is totally silent on the process of secession tells me that the framers of our Constitution considered entry into the Union to be a one way street.

MR2 · 11-14-2012, 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSB

The fact that the Constitution is totally silent on the process of secession tells me that the framers of our Constitution considered entry into the Union to be a one way street.

I guess a no fault divorce is out of the question then?

**The Reaper** · 11-14-2012, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSB

The fact that the Constitution is totally silent on the process of secession tells me that the framers of our Constitution considered entry into the Union to be a one way street.

Yeah, but they sure contemplated removing governments that were oppressive, by violent overthrow, if necessary.

TR

SF18C · 11-14-2012, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSB

Nowhere in the Constitution will you find a provision for secession.

Our founding fathers provided "the finest document ever struck off at one time by the mind of man."

It provides for the formation of the Union.

The fact that the Constitution is totally silent on the process of secession tells me that the framers of our Constitution considered entry into the Union to be a one way street.

I do agree with everything you stated but just who in DC has been reading/applying the Constitution lately? I think that is the source of the frustration.

bluebb · 11-14-2012, 23:25

Quote:

But nowhere in the Constitution are there any provisions for secession.

See post 76

Blue

Badger52 · 11-15-2012, 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSB

The fact that the Constitution is totally silent on the process of secession tells me that the framers of our Constitution considered entry into the Union to be a one way street.

Just differing perspectives I suppose. Some folks take a body of law (or the Consitution in this case) and regard it as, "That which is not explicity prohibited is permitted."
(We have lots of micro-management of human kind on the books to not dispute this.)

If the Constitution stands mute, is it not left to the states? (I could be mistaken but seem to recall that a provision to allow withdrawal from the union was made part of a few states' constitutions. Perhaps a more encompassing view of the issue is called for.)

If WI residents had heretofore taken their own constitution's silence on openly carrying a handgun in the way you suggest no one would've been carrying until the recent shall-issue law was passed (except the special class of people under the Fed LEOSA).

The question then is does silence on a subject indicate prohibition, or lack of? I think the latter. Opinions vary.

Richard · 11-15-2012, 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSB

But nowhere in the Constitution are there any provisions for secession.

I think there is, but it is 'implicit' in that either Congress or the collective majority will of the States can amend the Constitution to allow such an action - although I don't see it happening at any point in the near future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebb

See post 76

That's not the Constitution but a petition of grievances - the Constitution was not produced for another 11 years.

Our so-called 'Founding Fathers' were some right astute politicians in their time; I wonder how they'd fare in today's media and blogospheric driven culture.

Richard

sinjefe · 11-15-2012, 08:55

i think secession would be a mistake. However, for sake of discussion: I'm not a constitutional lawyer by any means, but it would seem like the 10th amendment, though not aproviding for secession, seems as if it certainly leaves the door open for that and other things.

10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

mark46th · 11-15-2012, 10:10

Richard- My plumber is Mexican, my wood floor guy is Bolivian and my gardener is Mexican. I use Spanish to communicate with them. Remember- I got kicked out of Mexico for working without proper documentation so if my cynicism and disgust with the U.S.'s current immigration policy and enforcement seems harsh, I have good reason...

1stindoor · 11-15-2012, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark46th

Richard- My plumber is Mexican, ...

Not to change the subject of the thread, but I had to laugh when I read that because I remember my dad telling me when I was a kid that you can't outsource your plumbing, (i.e. it was a good skill to have)...of course nowadays you can...it's just that the workers are being brought in from the outside.

Ret10Echo · 11-15-2012, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinjefe

I'm not a constitutional lawyer by any means

Sin...don't fret... There are those who consider themselves "Constitutional Law Professors" that couldn't describe the contents of the document if they were locked in the National Archives.