Marines Pose with SS Flag

[Box]

Since this "SS" flag has obviously been used as a symbol of USMC Scout Snipers for 30 years, I find myself wondering, why NOW, do we become horrified that these terrible Marines dare pose in front of a flag symbolizing the Nazi culture? Cultural context does not even come close to defending it in my humble opinion either. Those are American Marines, not Asian Marines. A swastika, the rising sun, or a pointy white hood might mean a hundred different things in obscure parts of the globe...
...Americans know the meaning that those symbols presently reflect.

However, where was the outcry every time such a picture like this has been taken in the last thirty years? Is this REALLY the first picture that shos scout snipers in front of such a flag? Are we just now noticing that the Marines have insidiously cultured a three decade long plot to bring acceptance of Nazi culture into the mainstream under the cover of being 'scout Snipers?

Or... have we always noticed that it was a Nazi symbol, and just didn't care? Is it because now that the Marines have been filmed urinating on dead savages, we feel morally repulsed and obligated to finally say something about the Nazi symbol on the scout sniper flag?

I don't know the right answer. I know how I would deal with it in my own unit and I wont be discussing that in this forum. I like the comment made in an earlier post - some folks will look at a picture like this and go "these dirt bags haven't shaved, and look at this punk with his hands in his pocket"
...and completely gloss over the "SS" right in the center of the photo. Is that the problem or is that just another symptom of a bigger problem?

What does that say about our current leadership climate? Are we really looking at the root cause of the problem? Are we leading troops and administering discipline based on sound bytes and video clips that make to MSNBC or the cover of the NY Times? I hope not. I hope we are treating our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen based on simple standards of good order and discipline. Media based leadership is going to bite us all in the ass if we aren't careful.

Metaphorically, lets apply medicine to the situation... if this picture was a "cough" does it just need cough medicine or should we step back and find out what disease process is causing the cough?

...maybe ten years of Afghani dust is just irritating the throat?
...maybe the cough is a symptom of the flu?
...maybe the cough is because there is a full blown case of TB

Robitussin ain't gonna cure tuberculosis.

Again, we like to hide behind the "ten years of combat" however, there is no way I can be convinced that every Marine in that picture has spent the last ten years in combat. A few of them look like they may have even gone to a high school prom sometime in the last five years.
Ten Years in combat my ass. The photo was deliberate. Maybe they fully understood, maybe there were a few of them that really did not understand the implications... after all, its the scout sniper flag.

So... who is at fault? The platoon leader, the photographer, the guy that allowed the photo to fall into the hands of the media?
...or is it something that EVERYONE in uniform needs to work on?

Again, I dont know the real answer, I just know that things don't look right to me.

[steel71]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

You don't have to go to Asia, the Finnish Air Force uses it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainin...nish_Air_Force

And here too, Coronado, Ca.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27swastika.html

Personally, I would be more upset over the hammer and sickle. I'm still waiting for the Commie version of the Nuremberg Trials to commence.

[Brian1/75]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.

Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/...ka-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.

[orion5]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India.

Agree. I've seen swastikas throughout the Buddhist parts of Malaysia, Thailand and China. The first time I saw one it freaked me out because it was a sign about 20' square on an old house that had been converted to a Buddhist community center.

I asked a local to explain it. Apparently it symbolizes good luck and the Buddha's heart. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit "svasti", meaning "all is well." They've used it for thousands of years and aren't going to stop because the Germans bastardized it.

But even so, I would be uncomfortable if our American military adopted the swastika to promote good luck and happiness, just because its original meaning in Asia was positive. I agree we shouldn't be using the SS as a logo/motivation either.

Count me among the ignorant who did not know what the "SS" symbol meant. I was good in math & science, not so much in history. If I was taught this, I don't remember it. I do remember the swastika. I can see how some of the guys didn't know the meaning, but I don't buy that their entire group or leadership chain didn't know.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by orion5

Apparently it symbolizes good luck and the Buddha's heart. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit "svasti", meaning "all is well." They've used it for thousands of years and aren't going to stop because the Germans bastardized it.

But even so, I would be uncomfortable if our American military adopted the swastika to promote good luck and happiness, just because its original meaning in Asia was positive.

It was also thought of similarly by some Native American tribes and was the original SSI for the 45th Infantry Division (USRNG HQ'd out of Oklahoma). It was changed to the "Thunderbird" after the Nazi rise to power because we didn't want anyone to think we had units associated with their ideology. After the conclusion of WW2, the 45th did not return to the "Swastika"...and the "Thunderbird" remains a part of their SSI today.

I'd wager you won't find such symbols being used anymore around any of the areas where the Navajo or Comanche 'Code Talkers' live.

Richard

[longrange1947]

I'm sorry, when did the SS runes become the Swastika?????

The case is that the children stepped on their whangers and the CoC stomped on theirs. It is a symbol full of hate and they had been warned about it before. In this day, they should have known better, as the liberal press loves to slam the military whenever possible while saying they support it.

Yes they are big hypocrites but that has been that way since the 60 when Walter C started it with his BS reporting. Hell, he even admitted it for cripes sake. We can al bemoan the poor pvt caught up in this, but it is biog boy rules and they will rightfully get smacked as big boys who f**ked up.

Stop the BS it means this to others, it means what it means and that is genocide.

[hoot72]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.

Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/...ka-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.

It is not a common sight to find the logo used in asia, bar Korea and maybe certain parts of China and India. Otherwise, its never really seen though.

Just my 20 cents.

[Richard]

USMC logo training guide:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19045...5Bcomic5D.html

Read and heed!

And so it goes...

Richard

[Marauder06]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

I saw the "reverse swastika" (not the Nazi swastika, the Buddhist emblem) a lot in the Republic of Korea. That might be what he's talking about. I know they're not the same thing, but they look a lot a like. http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhis...s/swastika.htm



It's apparently also a common symbol in Hinduism: http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_bi...ory/omkar.html

[bubblehead]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

"they did not know."

So the SNCOs and entire leadership did not know? Or they knew and allowed the use of said flag?

[akv]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

If you have Hindu friends swastikas are all over the place. They appear on religious images and holy Sanskrit texts, Swastikas were a religious symbol of "well being' thousands of years before the Nazis. This can now unfortunately lead to misunderstandings. Swastika itself is an ancient Sanskrit word. The Aryans were tribes in what is now northern India. Hitler was obsessed with Aryans legend, specifically the stories of lighter skinned peoples conquering darker skinned people with superior technology, and he obviously twisted this mythology/heraldry for his nefarious views.

None of this has to do with SS runes, they are what they are.

[kawaishi]

Originally Posted by bubblehead

So the SNCOs and entire leadership did not know? Or they knew and allowed the use of said flag?

I believe that the leadership knew, and it's the lower enlisted that I believe may not have known. They're relatively young and not far out of high school......not dumb by any means but perhaps unfamiliar with SS symbol. I believe it would be wrong punish the junior Marines for what a generation of officers and senior enlisted have permitted and promoted in their unit. The Corps is the kind of place that if the command says those SS runes are ok then it's "OK, MARINE!" and you can continue to question your CO's judgement at your own peril.


A racist Marine might have introduced this a long time ago but by the time these guys came to 1st Recon they were greeted by senior leadership who saw no issue with practice and were damn proud of that SS symbol. The CO and the senior enlisted are responsible for allowing it to continue, but the men who embedded this into their culture are either gone or promoted.
The most senior enlisted man in the Marine Corps has no alibi and if they start disciplining enlisted men it should start with him.

From Sgt Major of Corps Mike Barrett's bio:
"In September 1987, Sergeant Barrett was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 9th Marines where he assumed the responsibilities as Platoon Sergeant of the Surveillance Target Acquisition Platoon..................................In January 1995, Gunnery Sergeant Barrett was assigned to Scout Sniper Instructor School, Quantico, Va., as the Chief Instructor."

http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/smmc/Pages/bio.aspx

I never was Recon or Scout Sniper but I saw those runes. There's no way that he served two tours in that community (and once as Chief Instructor of the Schoolhouse!) and did not know about the widespread practice. On his way to the top he also served as Sgt Major of the 1st Marine Division where he could have stopped this in the Sniper community, and when he got promoted to his current job he was in the best position possible to address this but he didn't see a reason to do so.

[bubblehead]

One of my co-workers (retired Marine Corps O5) said it best: "no adult supervision."

[Spitfire34]

Once upon a time Sgt Maj Barrett was my Company 1st Sgt, he has those SS runes tattooed on his leg. He's one hell of a Marine, a legend long before he became Sgt Major of the Marine Corps. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Semper Fi

[SF_BHT]

Originally Posted by Spitfire34

Once upon a time Sgt Maj Barrett was my Company 1st Sgt, he has those SS runes tattooed on his leg. He's one hell of a Marine, a legend long before he became Sgt Major of the Marine Corps. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Semper Fi

If that is true he may be out getting a new ink over on his leg.......