War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims

[MK262]

Originally Posted by Pete

Nidal Malik Hasan was an American Soldier who was also a Muslim.

Going tit-for-tat is a useless game.

I agree that it is useless. It's just as useless as saying 1.2 billion people should be judged as a whole due to the actions of those who we are actually fighting.

Judging people as individuals, based on their specific actions, seems like it would be much more helpful.

[Sigaba]

If we accept the notion that we can judge the many by their silence over the actions of the few, are we willing to accept similar judgments passed on us?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by MK262

I agree that it is useless. It's just as useless as saying 1.2 billion people should be judged as a whole due to the actions of those who we are actually fighting.

Judging people as individuals, based on their specific actions, seems like it would be much more helpful.

Individual people with a collective religion that does not allow them to be individuals - religion related.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by MK262

Judging people as individuals, based on their specific actions, seems like it would be much more helpful.

In a world with complete and accurate information, perhaps. In one with incomplete, contradictory, and ambiguous information, the approach remains an unavailable ideal.

If I can say that 90% of a hypothetical group are a problem, then 10% are not a problem, then we are faced with the problem of how to filter out the different subgroups. As matters stand, we are unable to do this.

Keep in mind that even in a courtroom environment, some innocent people are convicted, and some guilty ones escape justice. It seems impractical to pursue even that level of accuracy.

So...MOO, YMMV...we either fight and accept that some innocents will be inconvenienced, hurt, and killed, or we embrace defeat. I suspect defeat will be remarkably uncomfortable. Therefore my conclusion is clear.

[Penn]

I disagree, this war must be fought with the mindset of MMD, It must be fought with the idea of slaughtering millions and millions of muslims until they realize they can not win. Fighting any other way is to fight a war of attrition. That fight is their strength, due to people, like Bloomberg, who believe that common sense will rule the day and muslims will adapt a social system which contradicts every belief and the very essence of their cultural traditions that make them muslims. Its foolish and dangerous.

Kill them wholesale, without mercy, without remorse.

[Richard]

Lots of words by lots of politicians.
On April 15, 1986, 300 bombs and 48 missles spoke loudly.

Didn't have too many problems from gaddafi thereafter.
Some people don't understand anything but force.

And such reigns the power of myth.

I was the FAO-DET CDR in the DAO at the AmEmb-Bonn in 1990-1991. The 'de facto' US Ambassador to Libya (who was not a career diplomat but an SES-level careerist from another department as we did not 'officially' recognize Libya diplomatically) was a close friend and an extremely busy man who spent much time in Switzerland and Malta in the performance of his duties.

Gadhaffi was fairly quiet publicly - but he held no real power and those wielding power under the political structure which actually controlled Libya was, to our dismay, a very actively engaged and disruptive force in North African and Mediterranean political matters.

"America, hell yeah!" felt better - our staunchest allies became leery and distrustful of our 'cowboy' diplomacy mentality - and our true enemies grew even more determined as they went further underground and became ever more difficult to identify, locate, and keep at bay.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

[MK262]

Originally Posted by Penn

I disagree, this war must be fought with the mindset of MMD, It must be fought with the idea of slaughtering millions and millions of muslims until they realize they can not win. Fighting any other way is to fight a war of attrition. That fight is their strength, due to people, like Bloomberg, who believe that common sense will rule the day and muslims will adapt a social system which contradicts every belief and the very essence of their cultural traditions that make them muslims. Its foolish and dangerous.

Kill them wholesale, without mercy, without remorse.

People often refer to Islam as an Islamo-facist ideology on this board. It's ironic that it is you that sounds like Hitler, though.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by MK262

People often refer to Islam as an Islamo-facist ideology on this board. It's ironic that it is you that sounds like Hitler, though.

Godwin's law. LINK

No - not like Hitler at all. Kill them until they realize they cannot win is qualitatively different that kill them all because they are untermensch.

[MK262]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

If we accept the notion that we can judge the many by their silence over the actions of the few, are we willing to accept similar judgments passed on us?

Perhaps you're just not paying attention?


http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php


Islamic Statements Against Terrorism

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200...10917.15.html;
Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk:9090/pdf/200...Fri/Quds02.pdf

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Oct10.html
Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:
“There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 - 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”:
“[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. ... [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric ... crimes”:
“Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_releas...9-15-Islam.htm

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
"You must know Islam’s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance…Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent."
Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLi...mism_May04.pdf, page 10

ETC, ETC, ETC.

[Penn]

you are confusing genocide with with total war. There is a difference, and since you are fishing, I'll jump in your boat, where do you sympathies reside, in detail please.

Originally Posted by MK262

People often refer to Islam as an Islamo-facist ideology on this board. It's ironic that it is you that sounds like Hitler, though.

[MK262]

Originally Posted by nmap

Godwin's law. LINK

No - not like Hitler at all. Kill them until they realize they cannot win is qualitatively different that kill them all because they are untermensch.

As someone else said elsewhere more eloquently than I ever could...

"I'm sorry, but call me out with Godwins law all you want, but when I see thread after thread filled with this such vitreole about a minority religious group, complete with commments about them being enemies of the state, not real Americans, etc. I will call it as I see it. The parallels in the rhetoric are downright spooky."

[MK262]

Originally Posted by Penn

you are confusing genocide with with total war. There is a difference, and since you are fishing, I'll jump in your boat, where do you sympathies reside, in detail please.

My sympathies? LOL.

I'm advocating that we define who the enemy truly is, and engage in target discrimination. To kill only those that have hostile intent, and not slaughther innocent people wholesale, and that makes me an enemy sympathizer?

[Penn]

Please reference the quote you use in your reply.

[Penn]

Originally Posted by MK262

My sympathies? LOL.

I'm advocating that we define who the enemy truly is, and engage in target discrimination. To kill only those that have hostile intent, and not slaughther innocent people wholesale, and that makes me an enemy sympathizer?

No one is calling you an enemy sympathizer.
I am asking you a direct question so that I may address you properly.

[MK262]

Originally Posted by Penn

Please reference the quote you use in your reply.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...1065901&page=3